Hi
Any help on the following would be great.
Ann Christian Radcliffe was born in late 1836 to Richard Radcliffe a joiner and Ann Christian and baptise in St Peters 8th Jan 1837. I have found her in 1841 1851 and 1861 census then she disappears. She is not the Ann Radcliffe who married in 1867 1890 1892 and I have not found a death for her either. In 1861 she is loving with her father and mother, brother William and her fathers grandson John James Radcliffe whose birth I have still been unable to find. Many years ago the forum members helped me with John James and came to the conclusion that he was the illegitimate son of possible Jane Eliza Radcliffe who was born in 1843 but I wondered if Ann Christian could have been the mother. Any pointers would be wonderful thanks
It would help if you were to give the detail from at least one of the censuses, where they were living, what ages the parents gave and where everybody was born often helps with a search.
Presumably the father's name on the marriage in 1867 doesn't match Richard, a joiner.
Richard Radcliffe father 1809-1864 born Isle of Man married Liverpool 1834 to Ann christian born around1800 in isle of Man
Siblings William 1835-1876 Margaret 1838-1841 Richard 1841-1919 Jane Eliza 1843- 1906 Catherine 1846-1932
1841 census HO107/566/21 Radcliffe family Father Richard Mother Ann siblings William Margaret
1851 census HO107/2190 Radcliffe family at 6 Boundary St Father Richard joiner mother Anne siblings William Richard Jane E and Catherine
1861 census RG3/2720 shows Ann aged 24 at 6 Boundary Street with her father Richard Ratcliffe (sic) aged 57 a house carpenter wife Anne aged 6 and siblings Richard 19 apprentice blacksmith Catherine 15 and John as a 2 year old grandson of Richard
1867 marriage banns Ancestry shows husband John Thorogood father as John Radcliffe a shoemaker
I thought I would update you on the Radcliffe mysteries and thank this forum for its help. In the end I discovered that Ann Christian Radcliffe most probably is the mother of John James Radcliffe, my great grandfather. John James Ashton's birth was registered 4th November 1858. He was born at 1 Court Boundary Rd Liverpool, the address the Radcliffe family lived in in the 1850s and 60s. His father was John McDonald Ashton a soldier with the 54th Foot, and his mother was Ann formerly Radcliffe. John James gave his fathers occupation as soldier on his marriage certificate. John James died in July 1936 and his age was given as 77 so this all seems to fit. John McDonald Ashton died in November 1867 in West Derby union workhouse from infected leg abscesses caused by tropical infection in Cawnpore India where he served. I have still to find Ann Radcliffes death but again it may be Ann Ashton so I have two possibilities to look for in 1863. If both of John James Ashton/Radcliffe's parents died before he was 10 it would explain why in subsequent censuses he was living with various different members of the Radcliffe family until his marriage in 1883. Thanks ago for your help over many years. Jane
Thank you very much for the update. It feels that we haven't been able to contribute a great deal to your quest, but glad you have found some solutions.
Shaun - apologies for the delay but many thanks for this information. I had missed these papers on find my past.
I can't find any information on John McDonald Ashtons parents other than the information on his baptism in 1828 which gives their names as John and Margaret. I found a death of a Christiana Radcliffe aged 28 in 1865who was a charwoman living at 7 Dinorben(?) St. I cannot find any other records of a Christian Radcliffe in the 1861 census so I wonder if this person is Ann Christian Radcliffe? Otherwise I am still chasing!
Jane,
Something to ponder though tentative.
The earlier born siblings of John McDonald Ashton were Sarah Ann, 1824 and Joshua, 1826, both with parents, John a Book Keeper and Margaret. Baptism address for both, Cunliffe Street.
The only marriage in Liverpool in close proximity to those births is that of John Ashton and Margaret Seed, November 1823, unfortunately no occupation recorded.
John McDonald Ashton having a surname as a middle name may suggest Scottish ancestry, a Scottish tradition.
Perhaps the apple hasn't fallen far from the tree, Margaret Seed, Bn 1800, and some siblings baptised from Cunliffe Street.
Parents, Christopher Seed and Margaret McNab, married Liverpool, 1790.
Well done Bertie, those names are too much of a coincidence not to be correct, even if more pondering required.
Jane if you are looking back to Scotland, apart from Scotlandspeople website you might be interested in checking out the website Dustydocs where one of our Scottish members found a lot of detail for me a couple of years ago.
Hi Thanks to all for the suggestions, as always they are very helpful.
I have been absent from this forum for a while but have found out more about John McDonald Ashton and his ancestors. I think John McDonald Ashtons forebears may have been John Ashton (1798-1841) who married Margaret possibly Margaret Seed. John Ashtons father is possibly Joshua Ashton( 1774-1825 ) who married Isabella McDonald (1774- 1829). This would give the McDonald angle. John Ashton snr was a coffee dealer and died in a "gig" accident in 1842. John McDonald Ashton accidentally shot a friend in 1842 and the account in the papers is tragic. A John McDonald Ashton son of John Ashton coffee dealer married a Margaret Galley daughter of Thomas Galley (late of Salford according to the newspaper account) in 1848 in Port Elizabeth South Africa - I am now chasing this part of John McDonald Ashtons life!
Possible family connections (McDonald)
The marriage certificate above has witnesses, Thomas Galley, Hugh Oldham Shaw.
Hugh Oldham Shaw married Martha Anderson, 1841, Manchester, witness, Thomas Galley.
Thomas Galley was mentioned associated with the death of Louisa McDonald, 1929, South Africa. Louisa born Galley, parents, Thomas Galley, Elizabeth Galley, born Anderson.
Louisa Galley married William John McDonald, 1870, South Africa.
Possible marriage, Thomas Galley/Elizabeth Spencer, 1837, Manchester, Widow.
Previous marriage, Charles Spencer, Surgeon, Elizabeth Anderson, 1826, Manchester
I have been using the Liverpool Electoral Registers quite a lot recently and noticed that some years have more than one Register.
For example, I can find Jane Maddox (my grandmother) on the 1920 Register living at 7 Makin Street with James Alfred Hibbins and his son, Walter (the Hibbins are related to Janes's step-mother).
However, there is another 1920 Register showing James, his wife (Elizabeth) and Walter living at this address - no Jane. I know Elizabeth Hibbins died in September 1919 and I assume Jane moved in after the death of EH to support her step-uncle but how do the dates tally and why 2 Registers? I assume they were taken at different times.
The 2 registers you are interested in are the Spring Registers, dated 15th May 1920, but that doesn't mean they were compiled in the Spring, just when produced. If you go back to the first ward page, you will see the above information.
Do you have Jane Maddox on a previous Electoral Roll?
Thanks, Bert - this seems to have been the 1st Register appertaining to 1920 as JA's wife is still on it. She actually died Sept 1919 so I guess it was compiled before then. Walter is JA's brother.
The other Register for 1920 shows Jane Maddox but no sign of Elizabeth.
Following on from your comments, I looked up William Gordon (Jane's father) for 1920. His wife (another Elizabeth and the sister of JA) died in Oct 1919 - she is on one Register for 1920 living at 9 Butterfield St but not on the other.
Any idea why and what times of the year they were taken?
I do not know the official reason why twice a year, perhaps it had something to do with servicemen sporadically returning after the war, also the high rate of Spanish flu victims may have been considered.
The twice yearly registers were introduced by the 1918 Representation of the People Act (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1918/64/pdfs/ukpga_19180064_en.pdf ), and the requirement is set out in section 11, although no explanation for it is given. Bert's theory may be right, although section 5 already makes provision for servicemen, in the form of the absent voter lists. Provided a soldier or sailor has the necessary gender/age and property owning qualification he may pre-register to vote but can only vote once he has been de-mobbed.
I suspect the main purpose was just to keep the lists as up to date as possible, which obviously includes Bert's point. And in answer to John's 'when' question, the qualifying date was 15 January for the spring register which came into force on the 15 April following, and 15 July was the qualifying date for the autumn register which came into force on 15 October. After the 1928 RoP Act, the dates slipped back to 1 Dec and 1 May for the spring register, and 1 June and 15 October for the autumn register. The 1945 RoPA set out a slightly changed schedule after WWII, there having been no registers during the period 1940-44. Owners of certain qualifying businesses got two votes - one for their business premises and one for their home, and graduate university students were also entitled to two votes, one at their home address and one for their university's parliamentary seat. The university vote was not abolished until 1948.
Thanks. Andy. Lots of useful information there. So easy to make errors of judgement when you are looking at official records without knowing the requirements behind them.
One further question regarding eligibilty for the Electoral Registers. I have found Ann Jane Peterson (I think she may just be down as 'Jane') living at 269 Gt Homer St on the 1894-5 Register. It was living accommodation and a shop. She had been widowed in 1892 and family folklore says James Alfred Hibbins (her brother) had arranged the shop for her when her husband died. Actually, Jane and her husband (Nelson Peterson) where at this address on the 1891 Census so the facts do not fully fit the story.
My question is: how would a widowed woman be eligible for the Electoral Registers as early as 1894?
Hope someone can help with another history lesson!
She would probably have been in the register as eligible to vote in borough elections due to her ownership of property, but she wouldn't have been able to vote in parliamentary elections until after the 1918 RPA. Look for an 'L' beside her name. This means (when it was used) that the voter was not eligible to vote in Parliamentary Elections. Not all the registers used these supplementary letters. Others include J meaning eligible for jury service; D means not eligible to vote in borough elections; M means merchant seaman and S means service voter. The eligibility rules changed a couple of times during the nineteenth century. From 1867 the right to vote was given to owners or tenants of buildings worth at least £10 per annum provided that they had occupied them for at least 12 months prior to the registration date (ie the qualifying date mentioned in my previous posting). It also depended on all poor rates having been paid up to date. In 1884 this was extended to include all freeholders of inherited land or land acquired by marriage worth over £2 as well as certain lessees, occupiers and tenants paying rent of £10 or more per annum. From 1870 (the Married Women's Property Act) these eligibility rules applied to most men and all married or widowed women, with the exception that women in general could not vote in parliamentary elections until after 1918. Some earlier registers show the type of eligibilty, such as freehold land, freehold house, dwelling house etc.
Later registers usually show eligibility against two separate columns sometimes headed Parl. and LG for parliamentary and local government, and use codes such as O. R, HO and RW where O meant occupational qualification, R meant residential qualification, HO meant qualified by virtue of husband's occupation and RW meant residential (womens) qualification. 'Occupation' in this case means occupation of a premises, not as in a job.
Hi everyone and a belated Happy New Year to you all.
My grandfather, John Morris, was born in 1876 and married Georgina Vickers Forrest in 1900 and they lived most of their married like at 70 Stanfield Road. They separated acrimoniously in the 1920s and the 1925 Electoral Register shows John living there on his own in 1925.
The 1930-31 Electoral Register shows him living at 67 Bourne Street with his sister (Sarah Ellen Levens) and some of his family and this is the address on his death certificate when he died in April 1931. So I am trying to find where John was between 1926 and 1930.
An anecdotal story suggests John, after his marriage collapsed, went to live in the Dingle, possibly in Gloucester Place with a Polly Howard. However, I cannot find Gloucester Place and the one Polly Howard on the Electoral Registers doesn't seem to have anything to do with the Dingle. The couple of John Morrises I identified on the Electoral Registers as living in the Dingle don't seem likely as they are with female Morrises, the names of whom I do not recognise.
There are loads of John Morrises on the Registers but I could do with a way of narrowing them down a bit.
I got hold of a list of streets in the Dingle and used these as a starting point without success. I was wondering if anyone with a better knowledge of the roads close to the Dingle could perhaps help me narrow down the search. My 'Dingle source' has proved very reliable in the past so I am tempted to think there is something in what she says.
Another family story I have heard from several people, including my father, is that John Morris was knocked down by either a taxi or a tram and never recovered from his injuries but a RTA is not the course of death on his death certificate and a cursory look at newspapers when we were allowed to do research in the library in 'normal times' also proved unsuccessful!
Always amazes me how you can go so far back with family history and then get stuck on things that happened more recently - 1921 Census will help with some of this, of course.
A search for the street name Gloucester Place, Liverpool in the 1921 census only returns results for the Gloucester Place in Kensington, just South of the bottom end of West Derby Rd, which stiill exists today. It was far longer in 1921. However it's obviously not in the Dingle. That said, I don't have a lot of faith in FMP's search engine for addresses in the 1921C.
Thanks, Andy. At least you tracked down Gloucester Place, which is more than I managed on Google!
It was a long-shot and I guess the story remains filed under 'anecdotal'! At least the Electoral Registers gave me corroboration for other stories I have been told so it was worth revisiting my research.
Just wondered if anyone knew anything about Turner and Dinnett Printers and Lithographers?
I googled them without success after finding their name on a 1921 image ( yes I did succumb in the end, but only because I'm desperate to find something on my elusive Campbells !!!!) One of the orphaned Campbells was living with his uncle in Kirkdale and on the return his employer was Turner and Dinnett their address was 10 Moor Street, but that didn't help either.
I also would like some help with Admission Records etc for the Boys and Girls Orphan Asylum in Myrtle Street. Looks like 4 of my Campbells ended up there when their parents died in 1917. Think they are held in the Liverpool Archives, but I'm afraid I live too far away to visit.
Looks like there’s quite a few articles about the company and Turner’s 2 sons. They seem to be a well established company, so hopefully my Campbell did well there. It’s just interesting trying to find out more about people’s lives and with a bit of luck I can try to follow his life forward.
Unfortunately many of us aren't making regular visits to the library at present, I think your first point of call is to email https://liverpool.gov.uk/libraries/archives-family-history/family-histo… and ask them if they do indeed hold records of the Boys and Girls Orphan Asylum in Myrtle Street and if so what dates, and do they cover the time involved. This is not intended to be a push off, but more a request to gain specific detail as then perhaps the records could be booked for a time when I, or somebody, might be able to visit.
Thank you Mary, I will do that and see if I can get anymore information.
If I get anything concrete I will post on here again, but don’t want to put unnecessary pressure on anybody. Thank you again for your input and interest.
Good Morning everyone and Happy New Year to you all!
Well like most I’ve been burying myself in the 1921 census and trying not to go bankrupt!
Checking the DoB of a family member on that 1921 and then a chat with cousins I discovered the alarming newspaper story. It’s dated 18th December 1943. It is my Great Aunt who I’ve tried main times to find out the reason she was in Rainhill. This is the reason!!! My older cousins said Nan had told them she was deemed a Spy !!!!She was known to everyone as Delia she actually lived in Rumney Road. She was a quite soul who became so instructionalized she died in Rainhill. She actually had a nervous break down because of this. She was sent to Chester originally……..prison or hospital we are no sure??? Later on my grandmother moved to a pensioners flat in Lyme Close and Delia was moved to Rainhill. I was wondering if anyone knew how I could find what happened at the trial, if there would be records ……..not sure what kind……but anything that would give an account of what happened to her. The picture is the only newspaper article I could find. Your help would be gratefully accepted. Suexx
Talk to the Record Office, I don't know the dates they have Rainhill records for, but I do know they have some, fingers crossed they have yours. Be sure to have the date of death to hand.
Hi Mary have done all that a few years back and followed up and advise that records could be found by contacting Whiston Hospital. It seems some of the records did get stored but only a selection and they weren’t sure where !! It’s more the trial I am interested in ……if there was one. One of my older cousins remembers she was sent to Chester first, but he doesn’t know whether it was a hospital or prison. Xx
Hi folks. Hope everyone is having a great 2022 so far. Have been having fun going through the 1921 census and was curious to discover that my great-grandmother worked as a laundress at "Pension Hospital" in Knotty Ash. I presume by this she meant the Ministry of Pensions Hospital Knotty Ash (since the description was her own). Does anyone have any information on this hospital, particularly regarding its location? From newspaper articles I can see that it was used as a military hospital after WW1 and was described as being "adjacent to Knotty Ash Station" at the time the hospital was demolished and the land sold in 1925. I'm 99.9% sure this was neither a predecessor of Alder Hey or Broadgreen/Highfield Sanitorium. I suspect that, like the former Ministry of Pensions Hospital in Mossley Hill it was established by the American Red Cross. I've checked the 1927 OS Map of Knotty Ash (two years after the hospital was demolished) and there is a large area of what look to be nissen huts/temporary buildings to the west of the former station which could have been the site Can anyone help me out with any more specific details? Thanks in advance! Andy, Sydney Australia
Just found out that the American Red Cross did indeed establish a hospital in 1918-1919 in Knotty Ash. Contemporary ARC accounts talk of a "series of tents" erected in Springfield Park that were later replaced by "brick and concrete" permanent buildings. I'm now thinking the hospital may have been to the east (rather than west) of the former Knotty Ash station. The 1927 O.S. map does indeed show what look like permanent buildings on the eastern side of the railway line in the western half of Springfield Park (i.e. the part not now occupied by Alder Hey). Since they were apparently demolished in 1925 though I can't understand how they would be on the 1927 map two years later. Anyone able to confirm any of this?
Just a thought, Andy. When you do a lookup in the 1921 Census, on the transcript page, FMP provide a contemporary map showing the area where the person was living. Assuming they used a map which predated the demolition of the hospital, there's a chance it will accurately show the location. I believe (I haven't checked so may be wrong) that if you go back to look at an entry you have already paid for, you can see it a second time for free, so worth a try perhaps?
Hi folks, I could do with a fresh pair of eyes please.
The above lady, Emma Baikie Fergus born c 1864 is on the 1871 English census
ED, institution, or vessel
29
Household schedule number
152
Piece
3759
Folio
109
Page number
28
Household Members
5
living with her parents Robert and Maria Fergus and 2 other children, James and Robert in Hornby Street Court. The family in 1881 (if I have the correct family) are living at 17 Orlando Street with one extra child, Arabella. There were also 2 children, Mary Eleanor and Lilian May Fergus born in 1872 and 1874, both dying in 1876.
I have used GRO to cross reference all of the children, but cannot find any entry for Emma, who was born in London, or any other information apart from that census.
Another sticky point is that the parents I have, Robert Fergus and Maria Loutitt Scarth, both from Scotland, are showing as only marrying in Walton in 1875. I have had a look at FreeBMD but cannot find an earlier marriage, and also cannot find an entry on Scotlands People, LancsOPC or Familysearch
The name Baikie is a surname, as a lot of the Fergus, Baikie and Scarth families originated in the Orkney isles.
Sorry no results from me but I have come across many a marriage that took place a few years after the children were born, however in this instance, particularly with no reference in the birth indexes and also the much earlier date than the others, I know it's only four years, but that combined with the location of the birth makes me wonder if she was not the child of one or even both of them?
Thanks Mary, I am beginning to think the same. I take your point about birth before marriage, and the other thing being that a lot of the families had the mother's maiden name as the middle name, so maybe her mother was a Baikie rather than Scarth, which is Maria's maiden name.
Maybe they also adopted her and added Fergus on to the end.
John Baikie Scarth is brother to William Baikie Scarth. I have the marriage in Stepney 1855, and the birth of John Thomas Peat Jennings Linklater Scarth (!) in 1855.
I wonder if Emma Jane is one and the same and Robert Fergus and Maria Loutith Scarth took her in?
Many thanks for that, I have that family in my tree, but need to do more digging around. According to the 1911 census and living in Dovecot cottage (where many of the family were over the years), it states he has been married 20 years and has 2 children born and 2 still alive, even though there are 3 names on the census, one being his son Frank Dugdale from a previous marriage.
The tree for him is complicated as it looks like he had 3 wives. Mary is the first, as shown in the 1861 return. Married 1855 in Edinburgh which makes sense as she was born in Leith. They had 4 children Grace Linklater, May Lough, William Pattinson and John Jennings. I have no death record but on 1st August 1882 he marries Elizabeth Ann Beynon in Liverpool. They had 3 children, Elizabeth Isabella, Emily Grace and Frank Dugdale. Elizabeth Ann died at Dovecot cottage in Nov 1889.
On Christmas Day 1890 he married Sarah Jane Beynon, sister to Elizabeth Ann in Liverpool and had Harold Linklater and Ronald Stuart, the 2 youngest on the 1911 return.
William Baikie's parents were John Stuart Scarth and May Linklater.
Emily Baikie must tie in somewhere along that lineage, just got to join the dots!
I wonder if Emma Jane is one and the same and Robert Fergus and Maria Loutith Scarth took her in?
I'd be tempted to get the birth cert, the link being Shoreditch, birth reg and census. It's possible a mistake has been made, also possible another female relative.
Hi Bert, many thanks for the clip of the baptismal records.
I did have the record for James Linklater in my tree, but that has actually helped me, as I must have the wrong Robert Fergus. The one in my tree who I have married to Maria Loutith Scarth shows in a few census returns as a dock labourer or cotton labourer, whereas the Robert in the snip is a solicitor.
The Baikie and Fergus families are linked. One of them (will have to look through) was a captain in the 1800's so need to try and find a link.
The thing that I am struggling with is a marriage for John Baikie and Maria, parents of Emma Jane in your snip. I have looked on FreeBMD. I do not have a John Baikie in my tree at the moment so need to get his details and add him.
I have a couple of Baikie and Scarth family members who ended up in Cook County, Illinois. One was John Scarth Baikie, who married Annie Gauger in Cook in 1884, arriving in 1876 and being in the 1871 Scottish census in Orkney as a grandson. I don't have a father's name, but I have the mother as Mary Susana Scarth.
Checking the tree, it was John Stuart Scarth who was a captain. He married |May Linklater and 3 of the children have Baikie as a middle name.
I did have the record for James Linklater in my tree, but that has actually helped me, as I must have the wrong Robert Fergus. The one in my tree who I have married to Maria Loutith Scarth shows in a few census returns as a dock labourer or cotton labourer, whereas the Robert in the snip is a solicitor.
I think what you have is a docker with a sense of humour.
The thing that I am struggling with is a marriage for John Baikie and Maria, parents of Emma Jane in your snip. I have looked on FreeBMD. I do not have a John Baikie in my tree at the moment so need to get his details and add him.
Perhaps no marriage, the very reason the Shoreditch birth reg has no mothers maiden name, even though she knew the father and why he is mentioned at the baptism. It seems Emma Jane has carried her surname Baikie the rest of her life.
Two of my ancestors , George Lloyd and Mary Rogers, were married in Wrexham on December 31st 1833.
Theirs and the adjacent records I have looked at say "married .... with consent of Friends". Does anyone know anything about this form of consent? Was it unique to Wales?
Occasionally, if the Bride or Groom was patently under age but had had no surviving parents, then the specific consent of a Guardian would be sought. If there was no Guardian as such, perhaps because the person was poor or an Orphan, then the general approbation of the Parish Overseers, and of the friends of the couple was deemed sufficient.
All the Vicar or Officiating Minister had to know was that there were no objections to this marriage.
I have checked through the 175 pages of this particular record set and, from a random selection, it appears that every single one is "with consent of Friends". In a similar set for Ruabon, the entry "with the consent of" is left blank throughout. It makes me think it may be just the way the local clergyman decided to complete the registration.
I suspect it means the Banns were read and no objection was made to the marriage. Whoever makes the recording decides what they think fit to include, reason it differs from parish to parish.
I have found an Irish marriage record (on FindMyPast) for potential relatives - Patrick Doyle (the transcriber has written this as Coyle) and Bridget Fox - married February 2nd 1842. Against some of the entries extra words have been entered, such as Bride Street. The record against Patrick and Bridget appears to read Graveyard. Does anyone know what these "annotations" are?
In Abbeyleix there was/is addresses, Bride Street and Graveyard St. The record on Ancestry I would lean towards Chapel Lane for Patrick/Bridget, though not very clear. Not certain.
I believe the "Graveyard" refers to the entry above, not that for Patrick and Bridget.
I suspect these words have something to do with where their home was, I can't find the reference in the list of Townlands but it's possible https://www.townlands.ie/laois/
Looking at the records again, the married couples names are on one line, and the Wit (witnesses) are on the next line.
I have just found Bride Street, Laois, via Google Earth and there is a Chapel Street nearby. Both are in Ballinakill and this the right parish for the marriage record.
My 3 x great grandparents were Joseph Varley b c 1781 and Margaret Atkinson b c 1785. I think Joseph was born in Aysgarth Yorkshire. I also think Margaret was b in Kendal. (On 1841 census Margaret , now Tickle, was not born in county. This is possibly Clemments st Liverpool, but I can't read it. West Derby St Martins area ).
They married in Kendal in 1807 by Licence. Their first child Samuel was born there in 1809 and they moved to Liverpool in 1810, where the 2nd child, Joseph, was born. Father Joseph, a leather dresser, died in 1810 buried St Johns.
I know Margaret remarried twice. To Henry Weigh in 1812 and in 1833 to Joseph Tickle, both Liverpool.
Margaret died 1846 at Lambert St. From Lancs OPC.
I would like to know where and when Margaret was born and who her parents were and what happened to her son Joseph b 1810 Liverpool and who may have joined the merchant Navy as an apprentice. Not sure if the record is him.
On 1841 census Margaret , now Tickle, was not born in county. This is possibly Clemments st Liverpool, but I can't read it. West Derby St Martins area ).
Why is Margaret now Tickle? do you have evidence of another marriage for her?
If you were to give the reference for the census we would try to check the address to help.
Thanks, have you any ideas about what happened to her son Joseph Varley b 1810 Liverpool?
I cannot find any other descendants from this family other than my great x 2 grandfather and his daughter my great grandmother Elizabeth b1888. All others died as young children. This means that I have not found any DNA links to confirm my tree
It would help if you were to…
It would help if you were to give the detail from at least one of the censuses, where they were living, what ages the parents gave and where everybody was born often helps with a search.
Presumably the father's name on the marriage in 1867 doesn't match Richard, a joiner.
Apologies - here are the…
Apologies - here are the details
Richard Radcliffe father 1809-1864 born Isle of Man married Liverpool 1834 to Ann christian born around1800 in isle of Man
Siblings William 1835-1876 Margaret 1838-1841 Richard 1841-1919 Jane Eliza 1843- 1906 Catherine 1846-1932
1841 census HO107/566/21 Radcliffe family Father Richard Mother Ann siblings William Margaret
1851 census HO107/2190 Radcliffe family at 6 Boundary St Father Richard joiner mother Anne siblings William Richard Jane E and Catherine
1861 census RG3/2720 shows Ann aged 24 at 6 Boundary Street with her father Richard Ratcliffe (sic) aged 57 a house carpenter wife Anne aged 6 and siblings Richard 19 apprentice blacksmith Catherine 15 and John as a 2 year old grandson of Richard
1867 marriage banns Ancestry shows husband John Thorogood father as John Radcliffe a shoemaker
I hope this clarifies and many thanks
Jane
I thought I would update you…
I thought I would update you on the Radcliffe mysteries and thank this forum for its help. In the end I discovered that Ann Christian Radcliffe most probably is the mother of John James Radcliffe, my great grandfather. John James Ashton's birth was registered 4th November 1858. He was born at 1 Court Boundary Rd Liverpool, the address the Radcliffe family lived in in the 1850s and 60s. His father was John McDonald Ashton a soldier with the 54th Foot, and his mother was Ann formerly Radcliffe. John James gave his fathers occupation as soldier on his marriage certificate. John James died in July 1936 and his age was given as 77 so this all seems to fit. John McDonald Ashton died in November 1867 in West Derby union workhouse from infected leg abscesses caused by tropical infection in Cawnpore India where he served. I have still to find Ann Radcliffes death but again it may be Ann Ashton so I have two possibilities to look for in 1863. If both of John James Ashton/Radcliffe's parents died before he was 10 it would explain why in subsequent censuses he was living with various different members of the Radcliffe family until his marriage in 1883. Thanks ago for your help over many years. Jane
Thank you very much for the…
Thank you very much for the update. It feels that we haven't been able to contribute a great deal to your quest, but glad you have found some solutions.
John Ashton's army papers…
John Ashton's army papers are viewable on FindMyPast https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo97%2f1554%2f014%2f001…
Shaun - apologies for the…
Shaun - apologies for the delay but many thanks for this information. I had missed these papers on find my past.
I can't find any information on John McDonald Ashtons parents other than the information on his baptism in 1828 which gives their names as John and Margaret. I found a death of a Christiana Radcliffe aged 28 in 1865who was a charwoman living at 7 Dinorben(?) St. I cannot find any other records of a Christian Radcliffe in the 1861 census so I wonder if this person is Ann Christian Radcliffe? Otherwise I am still chasing!
Jane, Something to ponder…
Jane,
Something to ponder though tentative.
The earlier born siblings of John McDonald Ashton were Sarah Ann, 1824 and Joshua, 1826, both with parents, John a Book Keeper and Margaret. Baptism address for both, Cunliffe Street.
The only marriage in Liverpool in close proximity to those births is that of John Ashton and Margaret Seed, November 1823, unfortunately no occupation recorded.
John McDonald Ashton having a surname as a middle name may suggest Scottish ancestry, a Scottish tradition.
Perhaps the apple hasn't fallen far from the tree, Margaret Seed, Bn 1800, and some siblings baptised from Cunliffe Street.
Parents, Christopher Seed and Margaret McNab, married Liverpool, 1790.
McNab may be the Scottish connection.
More to ponder concerning…
More to ponder concerning Christopher Seed and Margaret McNab.
Christopher Seed is recorded as being a Whitesmith, possible parents, James Seed, Whitesmith, and Ann Hilliard, married 1762 Liverpool.
Christopher and Margaret named their first son James.
Following on the thought of naming children after grandparents, second son born to Christopher Seed and Margaret McNab was Robert.
Looking at a possible Scottish connection, a Margaret McNab born 1769, Dull, Scotland, to Robert McNab and Janet McDonald.
Death, Robert McNab, 1727…
Death,
Robert McNab, 1727-1802, Cunliffe St
Liverpool, St Peter
Well done Bertie, those…
Well done Bertie, those names are too much of a coincidence not to be correct, even if more pondering required.
Jane if you are looking back to Scotland, apart from Scotlandspeople website you might be interested in checking out the website Dustydocs where one of our Scottish members found a lot of detail for me a couple of years ago.
Hi Thanks to all for the…
Hi Thanks to all for the suggestions, as always they are very helpful.
I have been absent from this forum for a while but have found out more about John McDonald Ashton and his ancestors. I think John McDonald Ashtons forebears may have been John Ashton (1798-1841) who married Margaret possibly Margaret Seed. John Ashtons father is possibly Joshua Ashton( 1774-1825 ) who married Isabella McDonald (1774- 1829). This would give the McDonald angle. John Ashton snr was a coffee dealer and died in a "gig" accident in 1842. John McDonald Ashton accidentally shot a friend in 1842 and the account in the papers is tragic. A John McDonald Ashton son of John Ashton coffee dealer married a Margaret Galley daughter of Thomas Galley (late of Salford according to the newspaper account) in 1848 in Port Elizabeth South Africa - I am now chasing this part of John McDonald Ashtons life!
https://www.familysearch.org…
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSKD-WTZD?view=index&a…
Possible family connections …
Possible family connections (McDonald)
The marriage certificate above has witnesses, Thomas Galley, Hugh Oldham Shaw.
Hugh Oldham Shaw married Martha Anderson, 1841, Manchester, witness, Thomas Galley.
Thomas Galley was mentioned associated with the death of Louisa McDonald, 1929, South Africa. Louisa born Galley, parents, Thomas Galley, Elizabeth Galley, born Anderson.
Louisa Galley married William John McDonald, 1870, South Africa.
Possible marriage, Thomas Galley/Elizabeth Spencer, 1837, Manchester, Widow.
Previous marriage, Charles Spencer, Surgeon, Elizabeth Anderson, 1826, Manchester
Thanks. I had seen the Hugh…
Thanks. I had seen the Hugh Olham Shaw on the marriage certificate but had not made the other connections. I shall pursue this