I have a family who moved from Lancashire or Cheshire to N. Ireland c 1851 to 1855 and then I have problems.
Charles Smith b c 1817 Ireland. He married Sarah Manchester b c 1826 Ormskirk in 1846 Manchester. They appear on the English censuses in 1851 through to 1871 and then 1891 Sarah is a widow with some of her children in Barrow in Furness. I would like to trace their children, find 1881 census and possible death for Charles her husband.
Here is what I know;
1) Jane Smith b 1847 Upholland; found in 51 Birkenhead and 61 Liverpool census after that I have lost her.
2) Henry Smith 1850 Birkenhead. married Emma Morgan 1877 in Barrow. 1881 and 91 in Barrow with Wife and Children. No death known, but otherwise ok with him.
3) Charles b 1851, Belfast; married Elizabeth Gilboby 1876 Lancashire. 1881 and 1891 Barrow died 1903 belfast. I have his children from the census. His son Charles Daniel Smith married in Ireland 1910 Belfast, to Esther Bailie, can't find any children.
4) James Smith 1857 Liverpool; I am OK with him
4) Sarah Ellen Smith b 1860 Liverpool. 1861 / 71 census (Mother a Widow in 1871) Lost after that
My first post on here but it is an important one for me because I totally cannot find my GG GF Thomas Cross after 19 Nov 1849 when his daughter Margaret was born.
Thomas was baptised on 27 March 1823 • St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England. His parents were Henry Cross b.1785 and Elizabeth Thornhill b.1782
I next find him on the 1841 census living at St Martin St, Liverpool aged 18 and a Shoe Maker. Next he marries Margaret Stowbridge on 19 Apr 1845 • Liverpool St Nicholas church, Lancashire. He is a shoe maker and his father is Henry Cross, a Cooper. I have the cert.
I then have Birth of daughter Hannah Cross(1847–1883)
26 Jul 1847 • Bevington Bush Road, Liverpool, Lancashire, England I have the birth cert and then Birth of daughter Margaret Cross(1849–) 19 Nov 1849 at 4 Court, Circus Street• Liverpool, Lancashire, England. Again he is a shoe maker. I have the birth cert.
I then lose all official record of him except I find a notorious character named Thomas Cross, a Shoe Maker, living in Birkenhead who becomes well known to the police and serves many prison sentences. He is all over the Daily Post and other Liverpool papers and I can cite examples if you need me to. Could this be the same guy?
Any help you good people can give me would be very much appreciated.
I have a feeling that this Birkenhead guy is not my GG GF as he was deffo born in Liverpool as he was baptised there and was baptised in 1823. I think I was actually hoping that this Thomas Cross was the notorious character and it would have been more exciting researching him.
But your pointers are telling me that this is not my GG GF - another interesting and important point is that on the 1851 census his wife Margaret Cross is living at 3 Shaws Court, Rose Place, Liverpool with his daughters and is marked down as a WIDOW !!
I haven't found a death for Thomas Cross but others tell me that maybe they just parted and she put down Widow to show respectibility?
Maybe your group can find my missing Thomas Cross's death?
If one of your Newspaper examples includes the murder trial, Liverpool Mercury, August 9th, 1856. I feel certain that is the above Thomas Cross, Birkenhead. Mentioned in the report is premises, Lord St, address of the above Thomas, 1861 census.
I'm looking on GRO now - looking at the image it looks like it was altered from 24 to 34. I'll see if I can find it on Ancestry myself - do you have a link you can send me please? I have an Ancestry account.
This is great Bertie - I feel this is our guy and that's why he disappeared. I think it'll be worth spending the £7 to get the pdf and see if its really him. Do you think it'll have his occupation if the death is reported from the Cholera Hospital?
I've got a cert for a Thomas Cross which I obtained from GRO some 5 years ago - I put it in my pile of unwanted certs because this guy was a bricklayer, died on 29th August 1949 at the Cholera Hospital in Vauxhall Road and was 24 years old. I have his daughter Margaret's birth cert - she was born on 19th November 1949 and her father was Thomas Cross, shoemaker and wasn't marked as Deceased :-( So the cert I have from 29th August 1849 wasn't my Thomas Cross.
It looks like this cert is the self same as the one you found on GRO earler. Can I put a snipped version of it on here?
Where to from here - did the Cholrea Hospital records survive?
If Cholera records did survive I would think they would be in Liverpool records office, Mary will advise on that when she sees your post. As far as I know, Cholera Hospitals were set up in large houses because Workhouse infirmaries were overrun. The discarded cert you have will be the St Marys burial, so we will look elsewhere.
Cholera records are something I didn't know about and tried to search the catalogue for the Archives, however this appears to be down at present. It would be easier to use the Contact link at the bottom of their page and ask them direct https://liverpool.gov.uk/libraries/archives-family-history/liverpool-ar…
Another point is that I will send you an email recently received from the GRO as I and others have been using a BETA test for images for the certificates, far cheaper than the .pdf version. You need to have an account with the GRO AND you need to sign the Consent Form, (link in the email) and when you are approved you will find an additional choice for "Image" as well as .pdf and certificate.
I am also very curious as to whether you have two accounts with this forum?
Thanks for that info Mary - I do have an account with GRO and will deffo sign up for the BETA test for images, that would be great.
I will send a message to Liverpool re. the Cholera records :-)
Finally, do I have 2 accounts?, not that I'm aware of but if you think that I have please let me know. What I do know is that I paid for the membership of the FHS and then found the forum and signed up for that. I'm sure you'll sort me out.
Unfortunately the details are not very helpful, I would only pursue this person further if you think it's possible the wrong occupation has been entered.
I don't think it's likely a Shoemaker some months earlier could possibly be employed as a Bricklayer. However, I've been unsuccessful finding a Thomas Cross, Bricklayer, prior to his death.
There doesn't appear to have been a marriage to look into, TC, Bricklayer.
If any admission records exist, any address would help.
Hi all. I'm trying to find out some information on a couple of businesses from Kirkdale in the 20s/30s and 40s. These are linked to the elusive Clifford Smith/Gervase Cliff mystery, slowly getting solved.
The first is an undertaker firm called Linacre's. It was supposed to be by the old rotunda. I have found John Linacre in the 1911 and 1921 returns, and his wife Charlotte Augusta. She was in the 1911 return as a midwife. Clifford Smith, as he was then, worked for Linacres at some stage. There are a couple of sad newspaper articles relating to John Linacre in April and May 1942. He took the money for a Christian burial of a 3 week old baby, but left the remains in a cardboard box in a bombed out house. However, I can't find anything about the firm itself.
The second firm is a Florist called Adamson's, again in the same location.
Last one is a general question about finding info on nursing homes in Liverpool in that period.
I have had a good Google, but not found anything apart from the info on John Linacre. Not sure if there is a Gore's Directory or similar for these periods.
I noticed on John Linacre's probate the address 31 Irvine St, image below 1952 Directory, connected to B Jenkins and Sons, still in business now I believe.
Thanks Bertie and Shaun, great work. I notice that looking at John's probate record, his spouse Charlotte Augusta is on the same page having died a few days later. I wonder what the cause was for both, car accident? Nothing on FMP newspapers.
The undertaker's office wasn't far from the rotunda, and the Adamson florist only 2 miles away.
On the 1911 return, Charlotte is down as midwife, private practice, at home, which was 55 Walton Breck Road. Is there any record of a nursing home at this address at all, if known? At this stage John was a cycle repairer, so undertaking came later.
Hi Bert, apologies for the delay in responding, been away for a few days. Many thanks for the information, I passed it on to my wife's 90 year old aunt, and she is delighted with the finds.
Charlotte Augusta Linacre was at 44 Walton Breck Road according to the UK Midwives Roll for 1926, and at 10 Walton Road in the Midwives Roll for 1931. Both of these were found on Ancestry.
My father was born on 22 April 1924 at 44 Walton Breck Road, according to his birth certificate. The 1925 Electoral Register showed Charlotte at that address together with John Linacre Senr. and John Junr. I concluded that Charlotte had acted as midwife at the birth.
Well done to our newest member who storms straight in with some useful details.
I hope we will be able to help you in your earlier post, because there's no response doesn't mean it hasn't been looked at - as you know we tried in the Help Desk and found it extremely difficult.
Thanks for that, Mary, I'm sure the other post will be looked at. As my father, Albert Ernest Forshaw, was apparently delivered by Charlotte Augusta Linacre, I have taken an interest in her life. Hopefully the following may be useful if not already found:
The 1938 Kelly's Directory has this entry for 10 Walton Road:
10 Linacre Jn. Undertaker
10 Linacre Mrs. Charlotte Augusta midwife
The 1939 Register has John Linacre, Undertaker's Manager and Charlotte A Linacre, Florist (Maker) at 175 Netherfield Road North, Undertaker's Office, with James E C Linacre, (A relative?) also at that address.
Hello to all. Appreciate Mr. Peacock directing me to this group. I've been doing my family tree on and off for quite a few years now. I wish I had become interested in it much earlier, as now that I'm in my fifties, there are very few people left in my family who can give me first-hand knowledge of past generations that they remember.
I have pretty good knowledge of three of my four grandparents' surnames: Pitt, Ward, and Dufresne. Oddly enough, the one I know the least about is my own paternal heritage... Nixon. My grandfather did not really know his parents well and my family were for some reason reluctant to discuss that side of the family. The search for my surname has lead me to County Lancashire, and the hope that someone can possibly direct me to official documents that I could consult. I've tried the relevant census of 1891 and 1901, but have hit a roadblock as there is not much info I can reliably use.
The key thing I am looking for is a record of my great grandfather's birth. Here's what I know:
A young woman (possibly unwed mother) named Ellen Nixon gave birth to Herbert Nixon around 1890-1891. By Spring 1893, Ellen was working as a laundry ironer and was living on Towson Street renting from a Mr and Mrs James Almond in Old Swan. She only stayed 5-6 months and then in October, she left Herbert with the Almond family to "find a situation" (which I assumed was an old way of saying she wanted to find a better job?) and only sent a little money back for Herbert's upkeep.
Herbert attended St. Anne's (Derby Lane). Also mentions he attended Byrom Hall, which I assume is another grade school. I have paperwork from Barnardo's that tells me he was 9 years old when when he stole some money from Mrs Almond and the family decided to send Herbert off to the Liverpool Sheltering Home at the recommendation of their clergy. He entered the home on Myrtle Street but was transferred to a home in Canada by January 1900. He grew up in the Eastern Townships area (Knowlton, Brome areas) of Quebec Canada and eventually married a Miss Nora Bracey. They had three children before he headed off to war. He went missing and was presumed killed in battle at Vimy, France in 1917.
My goal is to try and find some sort of record of Herbert's birth, and also any for his mother that may help me learn more about the Nixon (or Nickson) family from that time. I appreciate any guidance the members here could offer in terms of where to look next.
One thing that someone can maybe answer for me has to do with UK records from that time. I am a member of Ancestry, and they have the UK records available. A record I found lists the birth of a Herbert Nixon from the right time period in West Derby. But it appears to be an index to another document. It says "Jul-Aug-Sep 1890" and just states "Volume 8B, Page 411". Can anyone advise what that means? Does this mean there is a government or church record somewhere that contains the original written documentation? If so, is that available online or am I making a trip to visit Liverpool in the next few years? ;-)
I believe the above registration has the wrong page number (Ancestry) the below is the correct registration for that Volume and page. It looks like the 4 is faded and has been read as 1 from the original volume.
NICKSON, HERBERT mothers maiden name...
BELL
GRO Reference: 1890 S Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 441
Just to add to the confusion, that Herbert Nickson appears to have been baptised as Jonathan and appears in the 1891 and 1901 censuses as Jonathan Nickson.
I guess it's not the right one. I was trying to look into any Ellen Nixon that had a child around 1890, but was getting nowhere. So I was trying to approach the problem from a different direction. But you've certainly helped me understand the Volume and Page info I see listed. I was not aware you can access the archives from the GRO. I was looking at those index numbers and saying o myself "What good is this if you can't find out more?". I've just registered there and will give the searches a try.
Sorry to join the party late, blame the sunshine on holiday :)
A word of warning that I'm sure Bert has mentioned, never order certificates from Ancestry/Findmypast or any other subscription sites as their prices are over double what the GRO or the local Register Office would charge.
I was surprised not to find any entry in the Workhouse records for him, but the only Herbert I see appears to be an adult, although no age given. Nor any for Ellen as I thought she would have gone in to give birth.
Yes, I've hit quite a roadblock with regards to Ellen and Herbert. I don't know if it's possible that she had the baby somewhere other than Walton Workhouse and just claimed to have it there. or someone assumed she had it there when documenting the child? I've been trying to expand my search to be more broad, but it's hard to try and tie any names found to my family tree with so little to go on. If only to be H.G.Wells time traveller and go back to get a first hand account! ;-)
I would mention that I am actually a member of Ancestry, and so have full access to the North American and many of the UK records. Unfortunately, it looks like the UK Workhouse records are not included in that membership. And as you pointed out, FindMyPast is a pretty expensive option that I could not justify for the little info I seem to have available. I will be looking at the GRO has to offer and see if it gets me any further.
I took Bertie's advice and went ahead to contact the GRO for records related to my ancestors. I already was able to find the birth records for two of my great grandparents, Walter Pitt and Florence Heys.
With regards to the roadblock that I hit for my Nixon relatives, I did try to track down a bit further and only found one likely candidate so far. The notes I had said that Herbert had been born in the Walton Workhouse. I checked further and found a Herbert Nickson who was born to Ellen in West Derby, so I went ahead and ordered that on PDF from the GRO.
The When and Where Born (Col 1) is indicated as 13th of July 1890. The location appears to say "Workhouse Walton". But I was unsure what the initials mean below that. Also, I was curious to know what the Profession of Father (Col 6) was, as I cannot make out the cursive writing. Maybe someone else accustomed to seeing these records can help me decipher that? (My first guess was Flower Sampler of Easton!)
But this record does at least look promising. It matches up to the age I was expecting, the mother's name, and the place of birth. Now I just need to get some corroboration from other documents, such as seeing if Robert and Ellen Nickson had any children that are documented in census or other records.
"Urban sanitary districts were formed in any municipal borough governed under the Municipal Corporations Act 1835, in any improvement commissioners district formed by private act of parliament, and in any local government district formed under the Public Health Act 1848 or Local Government Act 1858".
I will send you an email, you must already have an account with the GRO, just fill in the survey completing the Consent with the email you have used to register with. It will give you some benefits, depending on the dates of certificates you are ordering.
Now I just need to get some corroboration from other documents, such as seeing if Robert and Ellen Nickson had any children that are documented in census or other records.
I know it's supposition but I'm beginning to wonder if Robert James knew anything about Herbert and therefore was Herbert his son.
We have 3 census', 1891, 1901, 1911, all 3 Robert declares himself married and yet with no sign of Ellen or Herbert. I wonder why Herbert wasn't left with Robert or why Mr Almond wasn't aware of him when Ellen disappeared. It seems to me if Ellen wanted out she would have left Herbert with Robert and his brother William J if in fact Robert was the father. However we must follow the paper trail.
I also found it very odd. My imagination was telling me that maybe Robert and Ellen were not actually married or that Herbert was a child of infidelity. It explained to me why mother Ellen might have been sent away, had the child in the workhouse, and then abandoned him as soon as she got the chance. And the Almond family may not have known her true history, as it looked like she just came to rent one of their homes. The Almonds may have only repeated to the Liverpool Sheltering Home what info Ellen had given them in her 5-6 months of living there. But again, it's all supposition.
I will research some more of the links you provided. Appreciate the extra effort you made for that.
got a relative who was a merchant seaman, commemorated by the c w g c, yet is death certificate states he died of tuberculosis,and his occupation is labourer (shipbuilders) he died in 1944 at home, cannot find a reason why he would qualify regards steve.
I'm no expert on TB but I know it ran rife among crews aboard ships and they would have removed the infected as soon as possible. Can't say how he was able to work, probably just forced to carry on and do his best.
Is he commemorated on a memorial or has he a CWG headstone?
I thought I had asked about him before, but when I searched the old and new sites, there were no matches.
He is my 3 x great grand father. He was born some time about 1775 to 1782, possibly in the IOM, but this is guess work. He married Mary Mason, but again I have no details and had a child Elizabeth Cowley b 1816 d 1888 in Liverpool. (bapt St Peter's; buried Anfield) She married Richard Howard.
Back to George and Mary. I cannot find any of their data in Liverpool. I found a possible death for Mary Cowley in 1830, but apart from Liverpool, no details. A possible baptism 1778 October in Bishop's transcripts for Liverpool. There is a possible will for George Cowley on family search , the details I have are https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRH3-L66?i=53&cat=3259…; but again this comes up with no records. There is another George Cowley in Liverpool at the same time, he was a boarding house keeper in Union Street in 1841 census and I am 90% sure this is not mine as he had different children. I had asked on the IOM forum, but cannot now search for it.
I am in a right pickle, please can anybody help me. I would be very grateful.
Just scratching an itch and probably more hair pulling to follow.
One of the signatories, probate, is George Gadd, I think born about 1792. He married a Mary Morris.
His parents were Richard Gadd and Mary Mason, married 1791, Farnworth.
Marriage: 9 Sep 1791 St Luke (formerly St Wilfrid), Farnworth (Widnes), Lancashire, England
Richard Gad - Bricklayer, Farnworth near Prescot
Mary Mason - (X), Spinster, Farnworth near Prescot
Witness: John Pye; Peter Shaw
Married by Banns by: Thomas Kidd Minister
Perhaps Mary Gadd/Mason lived with George Cowley, the reason no marriage can be found.
The children's baptism would still be correct, formerly, Mason.
George Gadd and Mary Morris named one son, John Mason Gadd.
Found the will in Lancashire Archives and will send for it. Thanks. ( love wills, so interesting.
I am a bit confused, not unusual, about Mary Mason/Gadd. If she married Richard Gadd in 1791 , that would make her too old to have then married George Cowley and had children up to 1816. Or perhaps not. George was born c 1775 and I thought Mary was a little younger. Where from I don't know.
I am working hard at the moment so I am sorry for the delay in replying.
To put some meat on the bone, Richard Gadd/Mary Mason, m1791 and had 2 children, George, 1792 and Richard, 1794. Later both became Tallow Chandlers, perhaps a partnership. I can't find any further children born to Richard and Mary Gadd, nee Mason. It may suggest an end to their relationship between 1794 and 1802 when George and Mary Cowley/Mason had their first child.
I can't find a suitable death for Richard Gadd between 1794 and 1802 which may suggest why no marriage can be found for George Cowley and Mary Mason.
If the probate for George Cowley, 1817, Family Search is your George, what's the chances of a George Gadd being a signatory for Mary Cowley who was previously a Mary Mason, his mothers maiden name.
Just to confuse you even more ..... My grandmother Harriet Harrison had an older sister Mary Ellen Harrison b 1873 Liverpool. Mary Mason and George Cowley were their great grand parents. She married George Mason Gadd b 1874 Liverpool. Married 1898 All Souls Liverpool. I think if you follow him back
His father Charles William Gadd b 1842 mother Mary Jones?
Then John Mason Gadd b 1823 d 1876 his wife Hannah Jones ?
His father George Gadd b 1792 d 1863 (Was he the one on the probate?) + Mary Morris
His father Richard Gadd. I think he married Mary Mason in 1791.
Mason is still a middle name in this family
Is this the same family??
From Lancs OPC there is a Mary Mason b 1772 at Farnworth where she married.
Once you start mixing in DNA matches it tends to get more complicated, I would suggest attempting to build "quick and dirty" trees for some of those matches and then see if they fit, rather than trying to attach them first before making the tree.
There is a tree on Ancestry that has Richard Gadd's death in 1843 Manchester and Mary 1841 also in Manchester. They don't show any proof though. Have looked on Lancs OPC and can't find a death for Richard, but there are a couple for a Mary Gadd not in 1841. Both of them don't fit with a birth date of c 1772
Do you have access to the GRO Private Beta Project? if not let me know and I'll send you the invitation, you can order either or both of these Certificates as a digital image, they cost only £2.50.
None of the above would be them. They would have been a lot older in the 1840s. both born 1770s. So I think I can ignore those Manchester deaths. Now I don't know whether to tell the tree owner or not. If it was me I would like to know.
I don't have access to the project that you mentioned and know nothing about it. I am sure it would be useful. Thank you.
I will put the links we have discussed on ancestry, with asterixes (If that is how you spell it)
Would anyone be able to help with further information on this marriage please.
Elizabeth Parry and Joseph Hughes 7th Oct 1832 Saint David, Liverpool Lancs
Trying to confirm it’s who I’m looking for. Hoping Joseph is a Stone Mason/builder/ miner!! Although I’ve found the marriage can’t find anything else.
Marriage: 22 Feb 1832 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Peter Almond - Stone Mason, This Parish
Elizabeth Parry - Spinster, This Parish
Witness: Henry Almond; Jane Watson, (X)
Married by Banns by: George Leigh, Ass Curate
Register: Marriages 1831 - 1833, Page 185, Entry 555
Source: LDS Film 93919
I am looking for some help in understanding more about, possibly, the 'Liverpool way' of helping each other out and surviving. Contrary to popular historical retrospect, my X4 Gt Grandmother Ellen McGrady (nee Shevlin) has 4 children before marrying. She was born in Ireland and is found in Liverpool by the 1851 Census - living with her 'husband' Stephen McGrady. She dies age 29 in the Cholera outbreak and this ages her at 14 in 1851.
She marries in St Josephs in 1858. She has had James (b1851 - d1851) Mary Jane (b1853-d1853) Stephen (b1856-d1856) and Ellen (b1857-d?) and they have been baptised at St Augustine. Children post marriage are baptised here too. In the case of Mary Jane and Stephen, they are buried in St Anthony's.
The addresses stay consistent (Sherwood St) throughout their lives.
Her daughter Ellen Kennedy (nee McGrady) (my X3 Gt Grandmother) has 2 children out of wedlock - James (born in Workhouse 1874 but with address Sherwood St) and John 1877. She marries at St Albans in 1878, 5 months before daughter Mary Ellen is born...
It was always my understanding that children out of wedlock would be 'shunned', cast out of society, children given up etc. So I'd appreciate any thoughts here? Was it a case of 'we look after our own?'
Also, Ellen McGrady & Ellen Kennedy spend time in/out the Workhouse. How does it work? I notice on records it says 'informant' (though often illegible) and wards listed such as 'attic,' and 'cleaning' etc. They were sometimes on 'medical' or 'surgical' in one case. Again, I'd love some knowledge around the actual ins and outs. They have listed addresses when admitted and I always thought the Workhouse had the stigma of 'once in, never out?'
Any social historians out there with some knowledge who could educate me would be most welcomed! I feel like I'm not understanding the true picture of how my family survived.
I recently did some research on an Irish immigrant* family who settled in the Vauxhall district of Liverpool in the mid 1850s so I offer the following comments.
This family were not married when they arrived from Dublin although they already had a daughter (born in Dublin c 1855). I suspect they told everyone they were married, as the priest who baptised their second child in 1857 at Our Lady de La Salette in Eldon Place recorded them as married. In fact they were married in the Liverpool Register Office in November 1858 and don't appear to have had a church blessing for their marriage, which may indicate they didn't want anyone to know that they were not already married.
On the subject of workhouses, don't forget that the workhouse was also the local hospital for those who could not afford to pay for their treatment, so if the two Ellens were shown in the medical or surgical parts of the workhouse, it was much the same as staying in hospital today and certainly would not have any real stigma attached to it, at least among their neighbours. Also the role and ethos of the workhouse changed considerably in the second half of the nineteenth century, as society in general became more benevolent. That is not to say that the workhouse was a fun place to be, but it wasn't as bad as it had been in the time that Charles Dickens wrote about it in Oliver Twist. Lots more about the Liverpool workhouses here.
* Immigrant is not technically the correct description as, from 1800, Ireland was part of the United Kingdom, and so Irish incomers were merely moving from one part to another part of the same country, much as a Yorkshireman might move to London.
Thank you so very much for taking the time to give a detailed reply. I have learned much from it and it helps me just gain a better background to 'life.'
Ellen McGrady (nee Shevlin) originally came from Poyntzpass on the Armagh / Down borders. Her husband Stephen came from Newry, Hibernian just down the road. I've tried finding more about this from the Poyntzpass historical group and they kindly searched the Graveyard at the Catholic Church - sadly nothing. I have so many Mary's, James and Brown's in the family I thought an Ellen Shevlin, daughter of Alexander Shevlin would have stood me a chance! Ha! The trickiest line to date!
Thank you once again - I really appreciate it and I'll read up on the Workhouse information. The writing is so hard to decipher on the old records but I'd like to understand more about the different 'rooms' etc.
Welcome to the forum! I believe Andy has covered most of the points you raised, however if there is any further clarification we can help with don't hesitate to ask.
Thank you Mary. Andy has been most kind and I have learned much!
Quick Q - in and around 1857 was it illegal not to officially register a birth? My Ellen McGrady (also seen as Grady, McCready, McGready, Macgreedy....!) was born 1857, the 4th born out of wedlock. She does register the birth of the others , although on 2, the birth date is different to the baptism records birth date. I have found out this is most likely because a fee was incurred if you registered a child 3 months after it's birth. There are some late registrations (not 3 months but getting close) So I have thought that maybe she amended the birth date to avoid any hint of fees. Albeit taking the Church records with a loose pinch of salt, it was definitely the case of changed dates as on one occasion the child is baptised about 8 weeks before the birth record on the actual registration cert!
However. Though I can find Ellen's baptism (29 March 1857 St Augustine) and this states she was born on 23 March 1857 (though who knows given the date amendments with the others!) I have yet to find her registration on GRO! I've tried most combinations of her (un)'married' name Kennedy and her name at the time McGrady and even her MMN!
Thanks for the link to the Audrey Collins talk on registration. Especially the bit where she says: "[From 1837] Registration was compulsory. The difference that was made by the 1874 Act was that by that Act the onus was put on the parents or the person registering the birth. Prior to that the onus was on the registrar to get the information." I must admit that while I knew that it was the Registrar's responsibility, I was also under the common misconception that registration of births was somehow not compulsory in that early period. Now I know.
The information entered on a certificate was supplied by those applying for it. No data was verified, no ages checked for marriages, etc.
Birth Certificates: During the early years of registration many births were not registered because it was not compulsory and there was no penalty for failure to comply. This was especially true for children of illegitimate birth. In 1875, it became compulsory. There was a six week (42 days) time limit in which to register a birth. After six weeks and up to six months the birth could be registered on payment of a fine. After that time, with very few exceptions, a birth could not be registered. It was fairly common for parents to adjust the birth date to within 42 days. Also, as part of the 1875 changes, a mother, when reporting an illegitimate birth, could not name the father; he had to be present and consent to his name being entered."
I was under the impression that the registrar had to scurry round and find the parents of new born, register the birth and collect a charge, however, the snippet in the 1838 Liverpool Mercury suggests otherwise. The parent only had to seek out the registrar and it was free with in the time limit. At 7s 6d after the six weeks no wonder children went unregistered.
It's easy to see how the idea became established among family historians that it wasn't compulsory for parents to register a birth prior to 1857, when you see what the text of the 1836 Registration of Births, Marriages and Deaths Act actually said:
XX. And be it enacted. That the Father or Mother of every Child bom in England after the said First Day of March, or in case of the Death, Illness, Absence, or Inability of the Father or Mother, the Occupier of the House or Tenement in which such Child shall have been born, shall, within Forty-two Days next after the Day of every such Birth, give Information, upon being requested so to do, to the said Registrar, according to the best of his or her Knowledge and Belief, of the several Particulars hereby required to be known and registered touching the Birth of such Child.
It was always my understanding that children out of wedlock would be 'shunned', cast out of society, children given up etc. So I'd appreciate any thoughts here? Was it a case of 'we look after our own?'
From all the research I've done with my family history I have found that illegitimate children were not treated any differently by the family. My Paternal Great Grandfather was born out of wedlock, cared for by his Grandmother and following her death his Aunts. His mother died when he was 20 and he had a relationship with the family she had following a marriage with another person. He went on to work as a clerk on the Railways and achieved a high level. A Maternal Great Grandfather became a highly respected - and head hunted - coachman to a local MP.
I have many instances of illegitimacy in the families I research, and certainly within those families they are counted in amongst the rest, and it would appear within society also. Baptisms, registrations etc. The only thing is that on their marriage certificates their fathers are always non-existent and dead.
Following on from Shelagh's comments, I suspect that as a good Catholic, Ellen Shevlin was much more likely to come under pressure from her priest to 'regularise' her marital condition, given that matrimony is an important Catholic sacrament. However the children born before the parents married would have not suffered any stigma was far as the church was concerned because they had been baptised.
I actually feel incredibly humbled by your time given to me. I am learning so much and am absolutely fascinated by the social backgrounds. I have had many conversations with myself surrounding my own tree lines - mostly Catholic's come to the City by 1850's, living in and around Scottie Rd usually in court / cellar housing with large families, large infant death rates and husband 'labourers' sometimes with the word 'Dock' in front!
I have discovered that *most* of these have married whilst way into pregnancies and this has gone against the 'stigma' one so often reads about. It almost appears 'the norm.' Yet I have wrestled with my conscience to accept this given, we read much about 'shunning' and 'cast out' and babies sent away etc. I wonder if this was a case of looking after your own and if the Registrar sometimes simply avoided certain areas or in the 1850's was over run with work in a population boom?
I find myself pondering the comfort perhaps found in knowing the Catholic Church could 'right it's wrongs.' Certainly this particular line had it tough as our Ellen McGrady nee Shevlin died at 29 in the Cholera outbreak of 1866. Ellen Kennedy nee McGrady, her daughter is 9 when this happens and is placed temporarily in the Workhouse with her sister who dies. She is the only surviving sibling.
Thank you all so incredibly much. I like to learn rather than simply seek black and white answers!
Hi folks, this is the other WW1 soldier whose burial I am trying to find.
A/Sjt Francis Claude Austin M/39555 Royal Army Service Corps, died on 26/7/1921 age 32 at Consumption Hospital, 70 Mount Pleasant. His address on the death certificate is 15 Durham Road, Seaforth, but from his service record I also have 14 Bedford Place, Seaforth.
He was apparently born at Portsmouth, and joined the King's Liverpool Regiment at Warrington in 1907. His address on discharge in 1919 was Elson, Gosport. His mother Caroline and (step?)father John Cook lived at 18 Formby Street, Formby, and he had siblings living in Warrington and Ashton-under-Lyne. The only census record I can identify is 1901 when the family were living at Manchester.
Married to Alice Goddard at Portsmouth in 1914, they had two children, Gwendoline and Francis, both born at Alverstoke. His widow later seems to have lived at Emsworth.
It doesn't really help you find a grave, but were you aware that there's a 1921 Census entry for (possibly) Francis C junior (b.1919 Gosport) plus someone named Margaret and 7 others living somewhere in Seaforth? Possibly this will turn out to be 15 Durham Road. Doing an address search in the 1921C for 15 Durham Rd shows a Margaret, Richard, Stephen C and 7 others at that address. The name Alice doesn't appear but that's not to say she wasn't also there. The occupants of 14 Bedford Place are a Donald, Mary and Nora.
No obvious sign of Francis senior in Liverpool, but I'm not sure how well the transcription of hospital inmates has been handled in the 1921C. There are too many entries doing an address search for Mount Pleasant to narrow them down to the consumption hospital itself.
Hi folks, I'm a volunteer for In From the Cold Project researching uncommemorated casualties of WW1 from the Liverpool area. I've managed to find burials for most of these men using the records available on Ancestry and Family Search, but I've got a few that I can't find. Posting details here in case anyone can help.
L/Cpl Arthur McDougall WR/506330 Royal Engineers, died on 19/12/1920 at Park Hill Sanatorium, age 37. His home address on the death certificate is 68 Canning Street, Liverpool, however the address in his service record is 57 Catherine Street, Liverpool. Parents were Joseph C and Mary McDougall.
1911 Census, living at 44 Percy Street, Liverpool; 1901 Census, living at 76 Frederick Street, Widnes; 1891 Census, living at 172 Albert Road, Widnes.
Lynne, You may have to look…
Lynne,
You may have to look at New Zealand, the address is 94 Wadestown Rd, also the home of Esther Smith.
The above record shows…
The above record shows Charles Daniel as a Watersider.
The 1938 electoral roll below includes a possible son, 17 Fernhill Terrace.
Excellent find Bertie,
Excellent find Bertie,
Thanks Mary, Lynne, this…
Thanks Mary,
Lynne, this tree popped up when I was searching, I'll not go through it, over to you.
Esther Bailie - Facts (ancestry.co.uk)
Thanks so much. I will…
Thanks so much. I will investigate all the hints you have sent me. As ususal you have come good.
Thanks That has put one of…
Thanks That has put one of the Smiths in New Zealand with his family. Well done Bert