I am trying to work out if Anthony Fox, buried Liverpool St Mary, 16 Apr 1818, is the Anthony Fox I am looking for (a sea captain born Ringmore, Devon, around 1790).
I wondered if anyone had any other resources around Liverpool burials which could maybe help me here by adding any information beyond that which is recorded in this burial record?
(This Anthony Fox was, as far as I can tell, killed in a bar brawl by a man called Richard Penryn - there are various newspaper cuttings of the time that record the trial. But what I'm trying to work out is whether this is "my" Anthony Fox, i.e. the captain from Devon).
Hi and welcome to the forum. There will be few resources available at that date, being before Civil Registration began, so no clues from who registered the death.
The only suggestion I can make is to check with Findmypast as to whether there may have been a Workhouse entry for this man, St Mary's would be a common burial ground for inmates.
Thank you for the suggestion, no leads there unfortunately.
Where was the Parish of St Mary's? Does the church/graveyard still exist? I've been struggling to find an old parish map or similar. The location may help to give some clues (e.g. if significantly inland he's unlikely to be a mariner).
Hi everyone.
I am trying to find out what hapened to Peter Trainor (name has also been spelt Treanor, Traynor etc).
His parents were Philip and Susan/Susannah Treanor from Ireland although he was born in Liverpool in 1846.
As far as I can tell he doesn't marry. He has several siblings and I have followed most of them up.
At the time of the 1881 census, Peter was living with his mother in 48 Essex Street and the Electoral Register shows this to be a cellar so I am guessing they were actually living beneath no. 48. The family was also there on the 1871 census and the mother is 'Head' of the household on both censuses. His mother died in 1882 and her death was reported by her married daughter.
The Electoral Register gives the father's name (Philip) for the address until 1874 (despite him dying in 1871) and then Peter's name appears in the Register from 1874 to 1882 but then he disappears.
Can anyone pick up the threads for me, please?
Many thanks,
Glen
P.S. The Peter Trainer who died 1888 (Dec Liverpool 08B 48) is not the correct one - I've tried him!
Nothing I could find to be of any conclusive help apart from, clutching at straws info. The George Kerr who shared 48 Essex St with Peter is possibly the same George Kerr who in 1898 was living at 128 Elias St with a Peter Trainor living at 99c. Are they related? or perhaps a nod and a wink a property was available to a friend. It may help to narrow down where Peter was.
No worries. Thanks for trying, Bert. I always feel reasssured when people on the Forum cannot find new information as it gives me confidence I have not overlooked something that I should have seen!
I cannot find any evidence to link the Kerr family with Peter Trainor but it does seem a bit of a coincidence that they both end up in Elias Street. I have made a note of this and will keep it on file and see what turns up in the future - you never know!
Glen
I've been trying for a while to find my great grandfather Edward Charles Smith family and or parents.
Assuming Edward Charles Smith didnt lie, or wasnt lied to, what I have confirmed in documentation is:-
Edward Smith was born in Liverpool 1865 (multiple census)
He was born Q3 1865 (1921 Census), 12 Sep 1865 (1939 Census)
He sailed on the SS Greece out of Liverpool (i've not seen them but one of the cousins inherited Edwards signing off sheet from the Greece, and there is an Edward Smith listed on the Greece)
He was married to Alice Allen in 1889 in London (church marriage record, and registry record - DNA confirmed )
His fathers name was Charles Smith - Wood Dealer ( Church and registry marriage record 1889)
He was a sailor in 1889 (church marriage record, and registry record )
From 1891 forward he lived in London (various census and 1941 death certificate)
He was at times dockworker and barkeeper (1939) and worked for JE Charlton in London (1921)
Everything else I have is speculation, theory or anecdote and i've definitely been down a few rabbit holes so i'm trying to start again from the facts. I have DNA tested with my father and a couple of his cousins and we do see clear DNA matches to Alice Allens relatives. There are a few trees featuring Edward knocking around the various websites but none of them have anymore facts than those stated above and some are clearly incorrect. I've DNA tested for the preferred candiate for Edwards father and none of us match.
I cant find any birth registrations in Liverpool for this period. There is a baptism that sort of matches but the birth is listed as March 1865.
I feel like i've exhausted MyHeritage, FMP and Ancestry. Are there any significant Liverpool offline record sets for the period 1865 - 1890 that I might try?
Hi and welcome, I think sometimes we don't realise how little birthdays meant to our ancestors and so the actual date of birth on the 1939 Register may have been a best guess. If he is consistent with birthplace then the baptism may well be correct.
There are school records that may be possible a list of those available, either online or at the Record Office is available here https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/transcripts
It does sound to me as though Alice may have had a relationship with somebody else, DNA not showing any matches to prove the relationship with Edward, and one thing I would suggest is to create "quick and dirty" trees for some of those matches on your DNA list that you have no idea about, a lot of them may well match each other and give some hints.
I am no expert with DNA matches but would suggest that you read a book by Blaine Bettinger, who is reputed to be one of the prominent experts in this field, called Guide to DNA Testing and Genetic Genealogy.
Thank you for the response and links. I might have been a bit misleading in the way I wrote this.
Two of my fathers second cousins have DNA tested and they both sit well within the ranges that say that they are "pure" second cousins eg that their paternal grandparents match my Dads. It is still possible that they dont but unlikely. Also unless Alice had a consensual or non consensual relationship outside the marriage with the same person for two children i'd expect to see different clusters and i dont.
I'd ignored the birth dates in my original research because others had suggested Edward was an alcoholic at the end of his life and just got mixed up. However the consistency with the 1921 census when it came out seemed to suggest he believed it consistently.
Next month, my dear Grandmother would have been 100. As she was the one who really drove my interest into life and family gone by, I'm giving a bit of time to trying to see if I can fill any gaps I still have in her timeline.
I don't live in Liverpool anyone, but I am considering the value in asking for someone to search schools records on my behalf. However, I wondered if, in your opinion, you all felt this would give me 'useful' and 'interesting' information. For example, are the copies of school reports or Teacher names etc? I know the names of the 2 schools and the rough dates.
Secondly - I know she worked in 1948 at 20 Lime St as she appears in the electoral register here. She used to say she did lots of hotel work in Lime St so I'm wildly assuming this to be a hotel. Does anyone know how I can find out what this address used to be?
Finally - does anyone happen to know if Sefton Park General Hospital would have any records stored somewhere relating to maternity records in 1953?
Any help & advice would be gratefully welcomed.
best wishes
Mx
Bertieone, thank you so very much. Looks like if I consider finding someone who could research at the Records Office for schools it would be worth looking up the hospital ones too.
Imperial Hotel! Just seen a photograph of it online too! Thank you very much. I know she also worked at the Adelphi and the North Western. I guess employee records just didn't remain? I'm also trying to find out more about her War work in Kirkby as she "made bombs for the RAF!" I know she dropped a shell on her toe which disfigured it so I'm assuming she wasn't in the high explosives section!! Frustrated that I can't find any records at all for this!
ROF Kirkby; Filling Factory No. 7.
If you google the above you will find information, however, details on employees are likely held at the National Archives, if there are any?
Also Findmypast does have some records, worth giving more details of grandma? or even a two week free trial as you should be able to do a free search and see whether her name shows up down the list to make it worth while asking or checking yourself.
I manage the basic FMP subscription and keep my 'tree' on Ancestry - though I find FMP's much easier to search through! I think I get frustrated / impatient as she had such a distinctive name (Primrose, though she preferred to call herself Rose / Rosie!) I thought I'd find everything!! How wrong can you be?! I know on 8 Aug 1932 (aged 9) she was at St Peters School, Sackville St (obviously not when she would have started) and was withdrawn on 13 Apr 1933. Her Mother married a Catholic and so she moved her to All Souls on Collingwood St!
Isn't it a shame those WW2 records weren't kept, especially with the roles women were deployed to do at home.
I missed your other enquiry about Sefton Park General Hospital records for 1953, I suspect they wouldn't be available due to the 100 year closure, but if they were at all then you would need to apply to the NHS.
On the 1881 and 1891 census my 3x great grandparents, Thomas and Ellen Brown (nee Callaghan) are living in Sun Yard Eltham. At the same address on both census entries a John and Catherine Barry are living with their children. Like Ellen, they are all from Cork, Ireland. It has been suggested to me that Catherine may be Ellen’s sister. I have tried to trace the Barry family to see if there is a connection between Ellen and Catherine but I can’t find anything. Unfortunately all of Catherine’s children appear to be born in Cork so I was unable to check the maiden name on the children’s birth records. Any help is much appreciated.
Attached to my grandfathers watch-chain is a hallmarked medallion inscribed "Liverpool Wednesday League" on the front and on the reverse " his name (P O'Hanlon) and "Lunts United 1913/14". I assume this is linked to Lunt Village though he lived in Bootle. Google searches have no info on LWL or Lunts United. Does anyone have any info about them please?
I wonder if the football team was more to do with . LUNTS BAKERIES LIVERPOOL and BIRKENHEAD, than the village. I think the Liverpool branch was Soho Street.
Thanks for the information. He worked at the Labour Exchange, Midland Road, Bootle from about 1910 to 1941 apart from his Army service in WW1 Not aware of any connection family of friends with the bakeries businesses but I will look into the Bowls information more thanks - I had assumed football for some reason. There is second medallion too which is does not have his name but is transcribed "BFL Div2 1908-09"Looking again I realise the front crest is the same on both(image below)
My 4 x Scottish great grandparents were married in Liverpool in 1815. George Murray from Eccles in Berwickshire whom I have traced through many generations back to the Scottish Borders and Mary Newton from Edinburgh. It’s Mary I can get no further back with. I think they were married in Holy Trinity Liverpool in 1815. One of their sons, George Murray, born in Liverpool in 1825, is my 3 x great grandad. Any assistance is much appreciated! It’s Mary Newton’s family back in Edinburgh I’m interested in. Thank you.
I assume you have these children below, you will notice 2 of them have been given as a middle name what appears to be a surname. A Scottish tradition is to give a child the surname of parents or grandparents. Perhaps this marriage is worthy of investigation.
John Newton/Mary Pentland, 1769, Canongate.
Baptism: 18 Jun 1820 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Stephen Murray - [Child] of George Murray & Mary
Abode: Finch Street
Occupation: Joiner
Baptised by: P. Bulmer Curate
Register: Baptisms 1820 - 1821, Page 24, Entry 190
Source: LDS Film 1656418
Baptism: 4 Jul 1824 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
James Henry Murray - [Child] of George Murray & Mary
Abode: Dance Street
Occupation: Joiner
Baptised by: J. Pulford Curate
Register: Baptisms 1823 - 1825, Page 309, Entry 2461
Source: LDS Film 1656418
Baptism: 4 Jul 1824 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
George Murray - [Child] of George Murray & Mary
Abode: Dance Street
Occupation: Joiner
Baptised by: J. Pulford Curate
Register: Baptisms 1823 - 1825, Page 309, Entry 2462
Source: LDS Film 1656418
Baptism: 26 Feb 1827 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Newton Murray - [Child] of George Murray & Mary
Abode: Trowbridge St.
Occupation: Joiner
Baptised by: Thomas Johnson Curate
Register: Baptisms 1826 - 1827, Page 150, Entry 1196
Source: LDS Film 1656419
Baptism: 10 May 1829 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Robert Pentland Murray - [Child] of George Murray & Mary
Abode: Trowbridge Street
Occupation: Joiner
Baptised by: P. Bulmer, Curate
Register: Baptisms 1828 - 1829, Page 314, Entry 2509
Source: LDS Film 93877
Below are the children born to John Newton/Mary Pentland, the top one I'm sure is a transcription error, there wasn't a marriage between those 2 names, I'll look into it more. Mary below is too young to be the one who married George Murray, I suspect John Newton, Bn 1770 is possibly the father of Mary Newton, Bn, 1793 ish.
My George Murray was a joiner journeyman and is on 1851 census living in Everton with wife Mary. States he was born in Scotland and she in Edinburgh. I was born in London and live in Hampshire so I don’t know much about Liverpool. Was the city drawing large numbers of Scots for work? Stephen Murray was one of their sons and George Murray as well ( my 3 x great grandad ) who went on to marry Elisabeth Basnett.
I'm convinced this is the correct family the children are named after, unfortunately I can't be sure who the parents are for Mary Newton who married George Murray.
To crack this one I think some credits will have to be got from Scotland's People.
It's very likely the correct marriage, however I would get Mary Newton sorted first before I moved on. At least the marriage of John Newton, born to John Newton and Mary Baintland ( error?)
What you have to take into account regarding ages, 1841 census, ages were rounded down for over 15s, if the enumerator followed instructions correctly, which they never always did. The rounding down was to the nearest 0 or 5, example, a 24 year old was rounded down to 20. Mary being 45 on the census could be between 45 and 49.
As far as marriages go, don't expect a marriage to take place where they were born, especially the groom, traditionally a marriage took place in the brides parish, if she lived in a different parish.
Mary Ann? Follow her and see if she leads elsewhere other than George, process of elimination.
Bert tracked my 4x great grandparents back to Dublin… William Ballard (b around 1781) and Ann McBride born around 1791. Since then I have found out that one of their sons was born in Drogheda, Louth in 1828. Robert F Ballard. I found him on the South Portland Historical society website with his pic. I’ve looked at records for births in Drogheda etc but I can’t track the family in Drogheda… I don’t know if they were RC or Anglican/ Presbyterian. Any help is much appreciated!
Edith was my daughter’s maternal great grandma … born in Dublin North in 1920.
When she was alive I met her and she spoke with a Portsmouth accent (Portsea accent) but I believe she came to England as a child. She married a Mr Ripley in Portsmouth Hants.
I cannot find her parents anywhere … I’ve also searched separately for Kettingham and Palmer. I’m curious about her name as it doesn’t sound very Irish.
Any help in finding her parents names and anything else on her in Ireland would be most appreciated.
I know Edith Kettingham Palmer definitely married a Mr Ripley. But who her parents were I don’t know but definitely she was born in Dublin in 1920. I wanted to find more about her parents in Dublin and beyond but zi could find nothing more.
Florence Mary Sutcliffe (my great grandma) was born in Liverpool in 1885 to William Sutcliffe and Eleanor Murray. She married John Richard Ballard on Christmas Day 1905 in Liverpool having my grandma Eleanor Ballard in 1906 also in Liverpool.
In 1910 the family moved to Wrexham where John Richard worked in a local factory as a French polisher. They are recorded in 1911 on the census in Wrexham area.
He joined the Royal Welsh Fusiliers and died at the Somme in 1916… winning a military medal for bravery.
I was told that, naturally, Florence Mary had a breakdown after losing her husband and returned the family to Liverpool, accepting his medal in Liverpool on his behalf but I can’t be sure.
I believe she lived to the 1970s and died at Rainhill Hospital (psychiatric hospital). I never met my grandma Eleanor and I wondered if anyone could help me track the family if indeed they did return to Liverpool after John Richard died. I would like to know more about Eleanor Ballard after 1916 and what happened to her in Liverpool. I attach a photo of Eleanor.
Just before I go out, thought I'd post this link to the Liverpool Archives https://liverpool.gov.uk/libraries/archives-family-history/family-histo… use the Contact us button and mark your message for the attention of Roger Hull. Do this preferably today or tomorrow as he works on a Wednesday.
You should provide proof of her death date and where and ask whether the Rainhill records are available in the Archives. If they are you should get details of perhaps a family member who arranged her entry into the hospital and any other details.
I have that info on her … it’s the part of her life from 1916 onwards until she met my grandad that I’m curious about.. her life in Yorkshire and her death I’m familiar with. It’s what happened to her after her father’s death and whether she returned to Liverpool with her mother.
That is a Probate Entry, so as well as trying to get records from Rainhill it's worthwhile applying for the Will, find the same entry here https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate and pay £1.50 for the Will.
I attach something sent to me about John Richard Ballard from theLiverpool Evening Express dated 24th Nov 1916. It says he was nephew to a Captain JR Ballard of the old 42nd Black Watch. Who was that Captain JR Ballard? I don’t recognise him.
regards,
David
pic is my great grandad and Florence Mary’s husband John Richard Ballard. Gives a Liverpool address in article… I wonder if that’s where Florence Mary returned to from Wales???
I have been told by Roger Hull that Florence Mary Sutcliffe first entered Rainhill hospital in 1920 probably as she had a breakdown after her husband was killed on the Somme. She was readmitted on more occasions and may have spent the majority of her life there until she died at the age of 92 in 1977. We were never told about her.
You should ask what records might be available to you although there might be a charge. If there were a number of admittances it might be worth while paying.
Hi and welcome to the forum…
Hi and welcome to the forum. There will be few resources available at that date, being before Civil Registration began, so no clues from who registered the death.
The only suggestion I can make is to check with Findmypast as to whether there may have been a Workhouse entry for this man, St Mary's would be a common burial ground for inmates.
Thank you for the suggestion…
Thank you for the suggestion, no leads there unfortunately.
Where was the Parish of St Mary's? Does the church/graveyard still exist? I've been struggling to find an old parish map or similar. The location may help to give some clues (e.g. if significantly inland he's unlikely to be a mariner).
There were two or three…
There were two or three significant St Mary's, the one I would suspect was in the vicinity of the Workhouse http://justme.org.uk/code/P8.html
The one on Couny Road, Walton http://justme.org.uk/code/H6.html would be nowhere near the sea also the St Mary's Walton on thttp://justme.org.uk/code/E4.html which I don't believe it is as their burial book is different from that.
Anybody else any ideas?
https://maps.nls.uk/view…
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102344096
The burial records are from, Cambridge Rd/Mulberry St.
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Thanks Bertie, that's the…
Thanks Bertie, that's the one I thought it would be