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General Genealogy

Grace Hare marriage WWI soldier James Murphy in St. Mary in Kirkdale in Liverpool Lancaster june 22 1919 . Need her wedding from churc book

By bjornlokken |
General Genealogy

 

Dear Sir / Mrs . / Miss

My name is Bjørn Løkken from Trondheim in Norway . Doing genealogy for some years , and working with a complex case , and wonder if sombody can help me in the Walton - On - The Hill Parish - Liverpool - West Derby - Lanchashire area .

Grace Hare was born june 3 in 1901 in Kirkdale Township , Walton - on - the Hill Parish in Lancaster County in Liverpool . Her parents was John and Mary Jane Hare Nr . 3713 down on the right side in the church book https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-896J-Q9H4-T

Grace Hare got marriage on the june 22 in 1919 with the WWI soldier James Murphy in St. Mary in Kirkdale in Liverpool Lancaster . James Murphy was born in New Foundland in Canada i 1896 , and he was wounded by a gun shot i the battle in the Arras Forrest in France , and had to amputed his left arm . James Murphy was in hospital in Liverpool for a while , and he has been A.W.L ( awol ) several times and we wonder if he could have get to know Grace Hare on one or more such occasions or whether Grace Hare could have worked as an assistant at the hospital where James Murphy was admitted as a patient in Liverpool .

Can someone please help me to find Grace Hare's and James Murphy's wedding and marriage introduction in the church books / register for St. Marys church ?

From Ancestry https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/4137422:9852

Name: Grace Hare Gender: Female Marital Status: SingleAge: 21 Birth Date: 1898 Marriage Date: 22 Jun 1919 Marriage Place: St. Mary, Kirkdale, Lancaster, England Father: John Hare Spouse: James Murphy FHL Film Number: 1545944 Reference ID: Item 3 Page 32

It will be very appricated 

Best regards from Bjørn Løkken 

Hello Bjørn 

I will look up the marriage certificate hopefully tomorrow, but if you click on James Murphy's name on Ancestry you will see his details - 

Name James Murphy, male, Single, Age 23, born 1896, marriage date 22 June 1919, St Mary, Kirkdale, father William Murphy, Spouse Grace Hare, reference 1545944 Reference Item 3 Page 32.

The marriage entry in the Register will give you little more than this, but hopefully the addition of the occupation, but perhaps you might like the image from the certificate if it's possible to get it.

 

 

Dear Mary ....thank you for responding 

I do have all the info and details about J Murphy from Ancestry . 

What i do need is their Marriage image ( The certificate - Licence ) from the churchbook  

It will be very appricated 

Hugs from Bjørn in Norway 

Dear Mary 

Just awesome . Thank you so much . I appricate it very much . As we say in Norway " i own  you one " you got my mail adress so just let me know if i can do anything for you sometimes in future  if you are ending up in Norway sometime , most of the sources are online in Norway . 

I take the opportunity to move on with the now former soldier James Murphy. After Grace Hare and James Murphy returned to New Foundland in Canada, they were either divorced or agreed to go their separate ways. We have sent a request to the archives of New Foundland to see if there is a formal divorce between the two. We know that 19-year-old Grace, who came from poor conditions in Liverpool, was looking for James Murphy's money. His military documents state, among other things, the following; this patient has a very low intelligence ......

Greeen handwritten fonts  .     From page 1391  .      https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/61084/images/b6510-s03…

James Murphy was shot in the wrist so that he had to amputate his left arm, but we also believe that he could have shot himself in the hand to avoid active service in Europe.

After Grace and James Murphy separated in Newfoundland, Canada, James Murphy returned to Liverpool where he arrived on December 31, 1919. So it was a short marriage with Grace Hare this.

James Murphy arriwal in Liverpool Nr 727 in the manifest                          https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/1518/images/30807_A000…

James Murphy was born on February 25, 1896 in St John's, Newfoundland, Canada. His parents were; William Murphy (1864-1922) and Esther Anne Tobin (1870-1943)     https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/173103947/person/29225…

In James Murphy's ship list when he arrives in Liverpool on 31 December 1919 you will see that he entered the address 225 Fountain Road in Kirkdale in Liverpool, James Murphy had to give an address in the ship manifest, and this was the only address he knew in Liverpool for this was where Grace's parents lived.

During the year 1920 in Liverpool, most likely in Kirkdale, James Murphy got married a second time to Irene Elizabeth Waugh Tait. She was born on 20 May 1894 in Liverpool, and her parents were James Tait (1856 - 1942) and Janet (Jessie) Waugh (1859 - 1944).

In the family tree from Ancestry that I post below , the person that own this tree - posted the wrong James Murphy, so you have to ignore this James Murphy who is said to have been born in Liverpool   https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/175293108/person/32227…

Irene Elizabeth Waugh Tait was first married to John Adamas Stanley Gee (1889 - 1919)

James Murphy and Irene Elizabeth Waugh Tait in  England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005   https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/8753/images/ons_m19613…

James Murphy and Irene Elizabeth Waugh Tait in 1939 England and Wales Register in line Nr . 33   https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/61596/images/tna_r39_4…

And then my question comes to you dear Mary A.

Is it possible to find this  marriage, and both of them , their second  marriages between James Murphy and Irene Elizabeth Waugh Tait in 1920 in Liverpool, and then most likely in the Kirkdale area?

This wedding is very important for me to find in order to fill the gaps in the story of James Murphy , and and then preferably as a clip - image - image from the church book as you found regarding the wedding between Grace Hare and James Murphy

It will be very appricated , the very best regards from your new friend in Norway ; Bjørn Andreas Johansønn Løkken ( it's my fully name ) 

 

 

Dealing with this marriage in 1920,  you may not have used this site before 

http://lancashirebmd.org.uk/

Many Liverpool (and Lancashire) marriages are listed on this site, including James Murphy to Irena E Gee in 1920.  If a marriage took place in a  Church of England Church then the name of it will be listed.  Unfortunately with this one it is given as "West Derby, Register Office or Registrar Attended".  There are two reasons for this description, one is that the marriage took place in either a Roman Catholic or Non Conformist Church where the Registrar had to attend as opposed to a C of E Vicar being able to register the marriage.  The other reason might be, and I think this is very likely given both the date and the possibility of a previous divorce, that the marriage took place in the Register Office.  

In either of the above cases (and I have checked the available RC Registers) your only solution will be to order the marriage certificate, the easiest and cheapest way being online at the General Register Office, just make a free account.

The details that you need are to be found on https://freebmd.org.uk/

Marriages Sep 1920

Gee  Irene E  Murphy  W.Derby  8b 1476
Murphy  James  Gee  W.Derby  8b 1476

This will cost £11.50 sterling but as you are able to do this online I believe the conversion will be done on the site and the certificate will be posted to you.

Unfortunately the marriage of Irene Tait to John Gee in 1911 also took place in St Marys, Kirkdale, which as you know is not available online, the Banns however were also called at Emmanuel, Fazakerley which was John's parish churh.  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2197/images/engl5617…

bjornlokken

2 years 11 months ago

Permalink

Dear Mary A 

Had to ask . Could it be possible to find any news clip  around and about their marriage in old local newspaper for Kirkdale - Liverpool in connection with the marriage to Grace Hare and James Murphy wedding june 22 in 1919 og James Murphy and  Irene Elizabeth Waugh Tait Gee in sept 1920 . 

For old America'n newspaper they use Newspaper.com 

Best regards from Bjørn in Trondheim Norway 

Yes, just to confirm what Mary says, I've found absolutely nothing in the newspapers for either wedding using all the various names.

bjornlokken

2 years 11 months ago

Permalink

Mary A and Andy J 

Thank you so much for your willingness to help and for all the help you have been given to me . It's very apricated .

Best regards from Bjørn in Norway 

John Hare and Mary Jane Fairclough in Kirkdale in Liverpool . Seekin old pic's - anybody knows their decendants or could do some lookup after info ?

By bjornlokken |
General Genealogy

 

Hello England and Liverpool :)

John Hare born 1874 in Liverpool , Lancashire, England and wife Mary Jane Fairclough born 1876 in Liverpool in Lancashire, England . One of their children was their daughter Grace Hare born in 1901 in Kirkdale - West Derby , Liverpool , Lancashire, England . She migrate 18 year's old to Canada in 1919 and later to Stoughton in Dane County in Wisconsin in America in april 1920 .

She got married on june 22 1919 to a soldier from WWI  James Murphy in St . Marys Church in West Derby Merseyside - suburb to Liverpool , Lanchashire in England . James Murphy was born in 1896 in New Foundland in Canada .

Anybody who have acess to old news paper archives , and would do some digging after eventually news clip about this couple ?

John Hare on Ancestry https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/113118951/person/430110048270/facts

Mary Jane Fairclough on Ancestry https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/113118951/person/430110049701/facts

Anybody who knows anybody of possible decendants after some of Grace Hare's siblings that might have an old pics of Grace Hare or her parents ?

Will be very appricated :)

Best regards from Norway

First of all I see no evidence that Marian is a twin, this is the entry in the index for Grace

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl?start=1901&end=1901&sq=3&eq=3&…

but no entry for Marian, perhaps somebody else will find it.

We have a few suggestions for tracing living people forwards, here https://oldforum.lswlfhs.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8154  I wonder if some of these hints might be useful to you.

Having done a search for children of Murphy/Hare without success I don't believe they had any offspring in Lancashire.  I notice from your tree that she married again, to a Mr Vike - where did this marriage take place and would there be any children in that vicinity?

 

Dear Mary A 

Thank you for responding 

John Hare and Mary Jane Fairclough Hare - parents to Grace . From Ancestry ;

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/15733250/person/280056…;                                               https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/15733250/person/204688…

Grace Hare was married second time to Christ. Vike on may 18 1920 in Stoughton Township in Dane County in Wisconsin in America . I am in touch with grandchildren of Grace and Chris Vike , living in Stoughton . 

Grace was living in Wolfville in Canada before her boarder crossing into America . She used false name and give false information to the boarder patrol when crossing . 

The Story about Grace Hare is a very exiting story ans a very complex one . 

I am also looking for old News Clip in Kirkdale newspapers about the marriage of Grace and James Murphy . 

Also news clip about James Murphy's second marriage to Irene  Elizabeth Tait Waugh abt 1920 in Kirkdale in Liverpool in Lanchashire is very intereseting  . Irene  Elizabeth Tait Waugh  was born may 20 in 1894 in Liverpool                                                                                                      https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/175293108/person/32227…

Best regards and hugs from Bjørn in Norway 

 

Not a twin,

Name: Marian Hare
Registration Date: Jul 1920
[Aug 1920] 
[Sep 1920] 
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration District: West Derby
Inferred County: Lancashire
Mother's Maiden Name: Faircloug

HARE, GRACE     FAIRCLOUGH  
GRO Reference: 1898  J Quarter in WEST DERBY  Volume 08B  Page 358
HARE, GRACE     FAIRCLOUGH  
GRO Reference: 1901  S Quarter in WEST DERBY  Volume 08B  Page 359

First Grace died same year. 

Death of Philip Trainer 1870s

By Gwebb1 |
General Genealogy

Hi everyone

I need another pair of eyes again!

The 1861 census has Philip Trainer (Srainer) living in John Street with his wife (Susan/Susanah) and 7 of their children.  Philip is described as a dock labourer and born in Ireland in 1818.

The 1871 census shows Susannah Trainor (Faines) living in the cellar of 48 Essex Street with 3 of her children - she is described as  married, the Head of the household and a labourer's wife but there is no sign of Philip.  I did find an entry for a Philip Traiver, living as a lodger in 4 Court, Brindley Street.  Although d.o.b fits and the entry says Philip was Irish, he is described as a widower.  Then I found a death in August 1871 for a Philip Traynor of  4 Court Brindley Street,  who had died as a result of a dock accident - there is a newspaper report about it in the Liverpool Mercury.  I had assumed this might be Susannah's husband as she was a widow  (still living in 48 Essex Street) at the time of the 1881 census and I thought they may have separated for some reason in 1871.

However, the Electoral Registers show a Philip Trainer was living in the cellar in Essex Street in 1871 and 1873.   There is a son Philip but he was born 1851 so I am guessing he would be too young to be on the Electoral Register in the early 1870s - he did marry from 48 Essex Street in 1877.  From 1874 to 1881/2 Peter Trainor is the name for the cellar at 48 Essex Street - he was Philip's son born 1845 so this would make sense and he also appears there on the 1881 census. 

So now I am wondering if I do have the correct death details for Philip Snr  - newspaper article doesn't mention a wife and death certificate shows the coroner reported the death and Southern Hospital given as the address. Not sure how to tackle this conundrum - all ideas gratefully received.

Not sure if this is relevant or not but the Electoral Registers also show there is a Philip Trainer living in 20 court Burlington Street from 1874-76.  Various spellings of the name don't help either!

Many thanks

Glen

 

Hi Glen, sorry don't want you to think we are ignoring your post, just that despite looking around, and like yourself checking other spellings of the name, I have come up with no other suggestions.  The Electoral Register in 1871 would probably have been prepared before the death in 1871 that was found, but maybe the one in 1873 was notified by somebody else, I can't explain that, sorry.

I would never feel ignored, Mary - I'm always just grateful for any insights people can offer me.

I did wonder if the 1871 Electoral Register had been prepared before Philip left the family home and before he died but couldn't explain the 1872 or 1873 entries.  He did have a son called Philip who was born in 1851 - would he have been old enough for inclusion in the 1872 Electoral Register?

According to the marriage certificate, Philip Snr had died by the time of his son's marriage in 1877 and having looked at the GRO entries, there really doesn't seem any record that fits the bill apart from the 1871 death.  Isn't the inclusion of ages on the GRO useful - whatever did we do without them?!

Guess I might have another puzzle that will remain unsolved though.  If people like you and other stalwarts of the Forum cannot see anything relevant, I guess I must have done quite a good job with my own research!

Glen

He did have a son called Philip who was born in 1851 - would he have been old enough for inclusion in the 1872 Electoral Register?

Well definitely he would have been 21 so considered an adult, especially if he may have taken over a business.  Can't be more definite than that. 

Locating a death certificate following a death at sea

By stewpot1944 |
General Genealogy

I know that my great great grandfather, Patrick Doyle, died on October 25/26 1859 when his ship, the Royal Charter, sank in a storm near Moelfre off the coast of Anglesey. I got this information from the ship's return document - Account of Foreign Going Ship to be delivered to the Shipping Master at [Liverpool].  He was about 38 years old and married to Bridget. They lived in Upper Wolfe street (or Woolf Street) at the time.
I have searched GRO for a death record, using both Anglesey and Liverpool District of Death criteria. I have also looked at newspaper archives but with no success. Any thoughts on where else I could look would be greatly appreciated.

I don't believe it comes under the usual GRO Register, contact them and ask as I think there is a separate list.  0300 123 1837

Many thanks for the pointer. I have two or three relatives who died overseas so I know where to start digging now. Thank you

Thanks to ShaunJ for the link. There is an immense amount of information available about the wreck of the Royal Charter, but from it all it is apparent that only comparatively few of the bodies which were recovered were ever positively identified. Without a positive identification I very much doubt if a death certificate would have been issued. There doesn't appear to have been an inquest. I suspect that the Board of Trade register of the seamen's effects and wages (noted on Rootschat) is the best evidence for the death of Patrick Doyle.

Crossley & Sons Carpet Manufacturers

By Lindsey |
General Genealogy

I discovered on Ancestry.com a personnel record for Maggie GRACEY b.1921 who apparently worked for Crossley & Sons carpet manufacturers as a Flax Reeler in 1914.  A quick google and I discovered this carpet company was primarily based in Halifax at Dean Clough Mills (but I think I also read had offices in Manchester).

My question relates to Maggie's address, given as 5 Smith Street.  No town or city is mentioned, so I would love to work out exactly where this was.  Was it actually in Halifax? I can't see it on a modern map. 

I know Maggie was living in Sculcoates, Yorkshire in 1901, and by 1919 was in Widnes.  I can't find her on the 1911 census.  I would love to work out where she lived in between 1901 and 1919, and hoping this gives me part of the answer.  If you were me, would you assume she was living in Halifax in 1914?

Hi and welcome to the forum.  I would suspect that she lived in the same town as she worked, especially since the employment records are for the area of West Yorkshire, so yes I believe Halifax.   Also if you scroll forward or back through other records you will see that many have been marked with "Hx", however some have, perhaps lazily, had the town missed off.

 

I'm confused about Maggie's date of birth - obviously it isn't 1921!

There appear to have been two Smith Streets in Halifax at the time of the 1901 and 1911 censuses. One is in North Ward in the Charlestown St Thomas parish (see map below) and the other is in East Siddal, a suburb to the south east of Halfax, beside the Calder River to  the east of the A629 Huddersfield Road and to the west of Southowram. Neither exist today and indeed the one in East Siddal isn't shown on the contemporary maps. No sign of Maggie Gracey in either location in 1901 or 1911. Of the two streets, I would guess the one in North ward is the more likely one as there are other carpet weavers in that street in 1901, and it is much closer to Crossley's former premises at Dean Clough Mills (today it's a Travelodge and offices).  In 1901 the occupant of 5 Smith Street in North Ward was a 68 year widower named Joseph Smith, so it's possible that he took in Maggie as a lodger.  In 1911 the occupants of 5 Smith Street were the Riley family headed by 54 year old Ben Riley a building contractor, with his wife Ann and three adult children, all living in a 7 room house.

Apart from something like employment or union membership records, or newspaper articles, I would be fairly pessimistic about finding much in the way of documentary evidence for her whereabouts over that period. She won't appear in any electoral rolls as she wouldn't have been eligble to vote, and as she presumably wasn't a householder, she won't appear in the street directories like Kelly's or White's. You don't mention her marital status so I assume that she didn't marry or have any children around this time.

Map is an extract from the OS 6 inch to the mile series 1888-1913 supplied by the National Library of Scotland. The digital image is released under the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial Share Alike 4.0 International licence

 

Oops, my mistake!  Maggie Gracey was born 1894 (in Belfast, Ireland).  She married William Rickard in 1919 in Widnes.  I mistakenly gave you the birthdate for her first child, Millicent!

Thanks for all the helpful info in your reply :-) 

Whiston hospital / workhouse 1920s

By Lindsey |
General Genealogy

Hi everyone, new member here!  Hoping more experienced  people can help me out.    An ancestor's birth certificate records that she was born at 1 Warrington Road in 1929.  I believe this was a 'subtle' way of recording the address of the workhouse (on the site of what is now Whiston Hospital).  The baby's mother stated her address as her husband's family address in Widnes, although her husband is not on the birth certificate and the father is left blank. 

Does anyone know more about this workhouse in the late 1920s?  What might have been the likely fate of a baby born there during that period?  (I cannot trace what happened to her).  Am I right that it was still at workhouse at this time, rather than a maternity hospital?  I am trying to piece together what happened to them.  Would any records be available anywhere?

 

Help on pre 1858 wills please.

By lynne99 |
General Genealogy

I would like to look at the will of Josiah Dean, who died in 1808 at Lathom.  I have found it in Xmission,but I have forgotten what to do next.  I treir Family Search, but can only find the Irish ones.  Any help please

It is a Supra will (Cheshire I think)

Ancestry has the details but not the image. 

Text: Dean, Josiah, of Lathom, farmer 14 Nov 1808
Volume: List of Wills and Administrations (Including the Infra Wills), Now Preserved in the Probate Registry at Chester. For the Years 1801-1810, Both Inclusive.
Collection: Cheshire: - Wills and Inventories, 1801-1810 (A-L)

Thanks Blue.  That must have taken you ages to find.  I have ordered the original, but got mixed up between Liverpool and Lancashire....  Silly me.  That is definitely the correct family with his daughter Sarah marrying Henry Manchester.  Brilliant  I am also so glad Margaret got the bedstead !!

Thanks again Lynne..  ps  I am off to IOM in June for my hols.

Horrocks family , Wiagan c 1750 to 17 80

By lynne99 |
General Genealogy

I have a DNA match that leads me back to William Horrocks b c 1731 in Wigan ?.  He married Mary Whittle in 1747 Wigan.  (Lancs OPC)    They are me great x 5 grandparents.  The link has their child Mary b 1759 Wigan marrying Thomas Austin in 1813 also in Wigan and having children after this when she was 54 to 60 years old.  I feel there must be a generation missed out.  ie Mary that married Thomas Austin must have been Williams Granddaughter,  Can any one help me in this?

Of William's older sons my great x 4 married and had a child , Mary, in 1782, but she married William Draper in 1802 and unless William died c 1810 and she remarried as a widow , then this is unlikely.  There was another son Robert b 1750, but I don't have a marriage for him.  

Please can anyone help me with this mystery? Thanks Lynne

 

 

 

Lynne,

Trying to narrow it down I think the Mary Horrocks you seek had a brother John Horrocks who possibly married Betty Jackson, 1810, Wigan.

 

 

Baptism: 9 Jul 1815 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England

Margt. Austin - Daughter of Thos. Austin & Mary
    Born: 6 Jul 1815
    Godparents: John Derbyshire; Ann Derbyshire
    Register: Baptisms 1805 - 1822, Page 178
    Source: Original register at LRO

Baptism: 29 Jul 1818 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Willm. Austin - Son of Thos. Austin & Mary
    Born: 27 Jul 1818
    Godparents: John Horrox; Betty Horrox
    Register: Baptisms 1805 - 1822, Page 234
    Source: Original register at LRO

Baptism: 10 Aug 1819 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Mary Austin - Daughter of Thos. Austin
    Born: 7 Aug 1819
    Godparents: John Horrox; Mary Derbishire
    Notes: [Mother's name not recorded]
    Register: Baptisms 1805 - 1822, Page 264
    Source: Original register at LRO

Baptism: 16 Jun 1822 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
William Austin - Son of Thos. Austin & Mary (formerly Horrox)
    Born: 14 Jun 1822
    Godparents: Jas. Edmondson; Elizab. Derbyshire
    Register: Baptisms 1805 - 1822, Page 305
    Source: Original register at LRO

 

 

 

Baptism: 11 Nov 1810 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England

Mary Horrocks - Daughter of John Horrocks & Betty
    Born: 8 Nov 1810
    Godparents: Geo. Bibby; Alice Bibby
    Register: Baptisms 1805 - 1822, Page 101
    Source: Original register at LRO

Baptism: 21 Dec 1812 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Thos. Horrox - Son of John Horrox & Betty
    Born: 21 Dec 1812
    Godparents: Edw. Aspinall; Mary Horrox
    Register: Baptisms 1805 - 1822, Page 135
    Source: Original register at LRO

Baptism: 5 Mar 1815 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Willm. Horrox - Son of John Horrox & Betty
    Born: 3 Mar 1815
    Godparents: Thos. Aspinall; Rachael Wignal
    Register: Baptisms 1805 - 1822, Page 171
    Source: Original register at LRO

Baptism: 23 Aug 1818 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Peter Horrox - Son of John Horrox & Betty
    Born: 22 Aug 1818
    Godparents: John Apinall; Betty Boardman
    Register: Baptisms 1805 - 1822, Page 236
    Source: Original register at LRO

These two look likely,

Baptism: 27 Oct 1782 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Mary Horrock - Daughter of Willm. Horrock & Mary (formerly Bibby)
    Godparents: Thos. Bibby, GFr.; Margt. Bibby, GMr.
    Baptised by: Jno. Chamberlain
    Register: Baptisms 1782 - 1805, Page 22

Baptism: 14 Dec 1788 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
John Horrocks - Son of William Horrocks & Mary
    Godparents: Mich. Morley; Mary Horrocks
    Baptised by: Jno. Chamberlain
    Register: Baptisms 1782 - 1805, Page 64
    Source: Original register at Lancashire Archives

Marriage: 7 Jan 1774 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
William Horrocks - Ince
Mary Bibby - (X), Wigan
    Witness: Gerd. Bancks; James Moss
    Married by Banns by: T. Whitehead
    Register: Marriages 1754 - 1775, Page 199
    Source: LDS Film 1885674

Son of Wm Horrocks/Mary Whittle.

Baptism: 16 Jan 1753 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Willm. Horrocks - Son of William Horrocks & Mary
    Abode: Aspull
    Register: Baptisms 1721 - 1754

"Baptism: 27 Oct 1782 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Mary Horrock - Daughter of Willm. Horrock & Mary (formerly Bibby)
    Godparents: Thos. Bibby, GFr.; Margt. Bibby, GMr.
    Baptised by: Jno. Chamberlain
    Register: Baptisms 1782 - 1805, Page 22"

This is the Mary I have as marrying William Draper in 1802 Wigan.  It is just possible that he died around 1810 and she remarried Thomas Austin.  The record does not say if she was a widow or not.  This Mary and William Draper had the last child (that I can find)William Draper 1811 Wigan.  Do you think this is a possibility??

Marriage: 26 Jul 1802 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
William Draper - (X), Dalton
Mary Horrocks - (X), Dalton
    Witness: Wm. Bancks; Grace Kayes, (X)
    Married by Banns by: John Gibson
    Register: Marriages 1790 - 1803, Page 311, Entry 1386
    Source: LDS Film 1885689

Forgot to say that my link to the family is through William Draper and Mary Horrocks' daughter Ellen b 1804 and who marries Henry Manchester in 1821

Thanks for your help.

Address

By steviebyday |
General Genealogy

  just checked the 1921 census, and it appears my grandparents were lodging with a MR John Sargeant, the address is

 2 Arngah Vale, Litherland, Litherland & Kirkby,Lancashire. anyone know where or what this place was.

                                                                                                                                                                                               Steve

 

Hi Steve, doing a wildcard search on 1939 gives Armagh Vale, Litherland. That is also shown on 1921 with that spelling. Usual transcription error by the looks of it. Not sure where in Litherland it was/is.

I have just seen that Bert beat me to it :-).

  thanks for your input, as he was a barman for threlfalls brewery, i  assume he worked in a public house near by.

Gt Homer Street sweet shop

By Gwebb1 |
General Genealogy

Hi all

I have recently been given the transcribed 'memories' of Walter Hibbins, the son of James Alfred Hibbins and his wife, Elizabeth.  He was born 1897).

It makes fascinating reading as it describes Liverpool in the early 1900s as seen through a child's eyes.  Walter also describes in detail the sweet shop at 182 Gt Homer Street where he was born.   James Alfred previously ran 249a Gt Homer Street, which he subsequently gave to his married sister, Jane Peterson.

From the description given by Walter, 182 Gt Homer Street sounds quite a substantial property and may have been opposite where the Gt Homer Street Picture House was eventually built.  

I'd love to see a picture of the shop or any more information that any of you can find out about the premises (or no, 249a).  I have traced the family's movements as best I can on the censuses and Electoral Registers.

Here's hoping!

Regards,

Glen

I hope Glen won't mind me jumping in on this thread on the off-chance that some kind soul (Bert, we're looking at you) is in the proceess of dusting off some old directories. A family named Segrave whom I have been working on recently had a draper's shop at 67/69 Gt Homer Street from around 1900,  at least until the death of the owner Catherine Segrave in August 1930. There is a possibilty that the shop continued in business until 1939  and beyond as one of the owner's nieces who had previously (June 1921) been shown as shop assistant in the business, was recorded as a manageress of a draper's in the 1939 Register.  So I too would be interested in any information or pictures about properties on Great Homer Street from that time.

Page 971 of the 1900 Liverpool Directory (this is listed by name rather than address)

Hibbins

Edward E Engineer, 30 Thurnham Street, Rocky Lane, E

James, Confectioner, 67 Stanley Road N

James Jun, Confectioner, 182 Gt Homer Street

Mrs Millicent, 53 Victoria Road, Tuebrook, E

Thomas, Confectioner, 221 Netherfield Road North, N

William, Ship Cook, 129 Chirkdale Street, N

Because of the occupations and also the name James "Jun" I'm wondering if James, James Jun and Thomas are all related?

Thanks, Mary - some new information here.

James in Stanley Road was the father of James Junr and Thomas.  

James Jnr was the father of my Walter who has written the interesting 'Menories'.

Thomas was Walter's brother and was actually called John Thomas but seems to have been known by his 2nd name.  I didn't know he was in the confectionery trade too but the Netherfield Road address is his.  James Jnr and Thomas were sheet metal workers and Walter  writes that when his father got the shop, the family was quite well-off at first because he always kept his main job while running the shop too.

Walter's description of the shop is really quite interesting - he talks of his father putting up incandescent lights when other shops in Gt Homer St didn't have them and how his father 'fiddled' the gas readings so they were not too expensive to run!

Walter also mentions the Christmas Clubs run by the family and how participating customers were given a Christmas card from 'Mr and Mrs Hibben's sweet shop'.  Walter makes no. 182 sound quite a commercial concern which is why I thought I might have been able to find out moreng about it - apparently it was still there in the 1950s but obviously not run by the Hibbins family - but maybe it was more run-of-the-mill than Walter realised.

Glen

1901 Kellys

182 Hibbins James, .iun. confectioner

249A Petersou Jane confectioner

No Segrave at the addresses given.

Thanks Bert and Mary.

The result from the 1900 Directory doesn't surprise me as Catherine's husband was still alive then.  Catherine had no occupation in the 1901 census when the family was at 50 Virgil Street, which is off Gt Homer Street. Interestingly in 1901 two of her daughters were working as boot shop assistants so A & H  Johnson Ltd at 59  Gt Homer street shown in Bert's 1911 directory entry may be of interest. Catherine's husband Thomas died in Nov 1901 so if they were already renting the shop at 67 Gt Homer Street, Catherine as a widow would have had a business property qualification based on that address which allowed her to vote in local elections, and that is what the 1904/5 electoral roll refers to. Either that or they were living over the shop. By 1911 Catherine was living at 52 Carisbrooke Rd Walton so a bit further away, but now her occupation was shown as draper, tying up with that 1911 directory entry Bert found.

The 1921 census shows them living at 48 Bedford Rd Walton as per the electroral rolls, with Catherine recorded as Draper and employer with her place of business being 67/69 Great Homer Street along with 3 of her daughters as drapers (employees) working at the same address. Interestingly Catherine was illiterate so it looks like one of her daughters filled in the census for her. It was Catherine's grand daughter (not niece as I said earlier) Mary Segrave who was shown as a manageress in a drapery stores in the 1939 register. At the time of the 1921 census Mary Segrave was living at 17 Breeze Hill (with her mother and father) and shown as working in her grandmother's drapery store. The address given was just 67 Great Homer Street.

I'm not sure of the significance of something in Mary's will (she died in 1979). She left her share  "derived from the estate of my late father in the family business together with the property in which the said business is carried on at 413 Stanley Road Bootle .. ," to her sister. Her will was written in January 1950 and not updated.  Her father James was Catherine's first son, but from all the documentary evidence I have about him he was a tanner, and by 1921 was the works manager of J Shakeley and Co who were located at the Bevington Bush Tannery. James died in 1937 and his will makes no mention of the family business. So my thought is maybe he had shares in his mother's drapery business. Having said that the close connection between tanning and bootmaking may also be significant. Any idea what business was at 413 Stanley Road in the 1930/40s? I haven't been able to find any electoral rolls for that address. The 1939R just shows a blank entry for 413. The 1921 census is confusing as it shows two separate 413s - one for Stanley Rd Bootle and another for Stanley Rd Kirkdale. That suggests there may have been two numbering systems on the same road.

 

 

Thanks, Bert.  Do you know what year this ad was placed?

I think the Hibbins' may have moved in about 1890 and left when businesss went pear-shaped in the early 1900s.

The description does not seem to fit exactly with what Walter Hibbins rememberd of his childhood home but one of the things I am trying to do is ascertain how accurate his recollections were.  His recollection seemed to be that no. 182 was 3 storeys: shop, kitchen and parlour on the ground floor, 4 bedrooms for the family (parents and 7 boys) on the 1st floor and then another floor with 4 bedrooms where the 4 servants slept.  One of the servants was a 'cellar girl' (washing utensils they had used to make ice cream, saspirella etc), one who looked after the children, one who did housework and one who served in the shop.  Walter seemed to remember these girls quite well as a couple of them married his brothers.

Glen 

Glen,

 For what it's worth, when householders were asked in the 1911 census to say how many rooms their dwelling consisted of, the Campbell family who were the occupants of 182 at the time, said there were six rooms.

Poor old Walter seems to be a bit off the mark with his description of his childhood home.  Makes me wonder how many other things he mentioned were tinted by the rose coloured specs e.g. his memory of the incandescent lights and the fact that 182 Gt Homer St was one of the first shops in Liverpool to have a soda fountain!  Walter reckoned his dad designed it using an old sideboard.  I think I need to be careful what I write up about the Hibbins' family!

Anyone know when Gt Homer St was redeveloped?

Glen

 

According to this site (https://historic-liverpool.co.uk/interactive-maps/historic-townships/ev…) there was a certain amount of bomb damage in the Second World War but the main changes started with the widening of Gt Homer St in the 1960s, followed by the progressive demolition of the old terraced housing in the 1970s, being largely finished by 1978, although the re-building work progressed more slowly. A good place for photos is the lost tribes of Everton (and the book of the same title if you can find a cheap copy: £24 on Amazon atm):  https://losttribeofeverton.com/street/great-homer-street/ Also take a look about half way down this page: https://www.liverpoolpicturebook.com/p/l4-l5.html To be fair to Walter, a lot of the old shops do appear to be 3 storeys high.

Thanks, Andy.  I've seen the 'Lost tribes of Everton' book mentioned before so I think I might have to treat myself - I'll try giving out hints for Mother's Day first!

Looking again at the 6 rooms of 182 Gt Homer St, I reckon Walter's description could have been fairly accurate, especially taking into account the rooms that were not 'counted' on the 1911 census.  Also, although he mentions 4 bedrooms on each floor, he would only have been 10 or 11 when he left so may have counted rooms that were basically one space divided by a bit of curtain or an old sheet.  I think I need to give him the benefit of the doubt!

G.

Bert, I have just one more favour to ask. Above you kindly posted an extract from the 1911 directory which showed Catherine Segrave's millinery business at 67 Gt Homer Street. Does the same directory also show what business is at 54 Gt Homer Street? In the 1911 census Edward Joseph and Rose Ann Corkhill are living at that address. Rose Ann is one of Catherine Segrave's children. Edward Corkhill ran a newsagent's and tobacconist's so it woukld be interesting to see if his shop was at 54 Gt Homer Street, or elsewhere. In June 1921 his shop appears to be at 155 Kirkdale Road.

That's great. Thank you very much Bert. Confirms what  I suspected. I saw a photograph online somewhere the other day showing Gt Homer Street and the corner of Roscommon St, so I'll see if I can find it again and check if it shows Corkhills next to the pub on the corner.

Thanks, Bert.  Do you know what year this ad was placed?

June 3, 1893. 

There was also a few ads for girls to serve in the shop and live in.

Thanks, Bert.  1893 was probably before the Hibbins family were living in 182 but I'll check out the dates.

Moving on to 249a Gt Homer Street - another sweet shop, this time run by John Albert's sister, (Ann) Jane Paterson - the Electoral Registers have Jane at this address from 1886 to 1926 (she died in 1928).  

My query is this: on the 1891 census, Jane's husband, Nelson Peterson, is identified as head of the household and a confectioner.  He died in 1892 but it is Jane's name that appears on the Electoral Registers from 1886 onwards.

Am I right in thinking that this indicated Jane would have been the official tenant of 249a and therefore had the votong rights rather than her husband?

Walter maintained that JA set his sister up in the shop when she was widowed but I am thinking he made the arrangements and perhaps paid the rent before her husband died.  Do you think it would have been unusual that the woman had the voting rights and her husband did not at this time?

Glen

Hi Glen,

I think this article may explain what was going on: https://classroom.synonym.com/act-gave-women-right-vote-britain-5469.ht… The second half of the nineteenth century saw a whole raft of reforms to do with the franchise in general, although they mostly benefitted male voters. While the Married Women's Property Act 1882 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Women%27s_Property_Act_1882) had nothing to do with voting rights, it represented a major change in the attitude towards married women who were hitherto seen as their husband's 'property'. Consequently the entitlement to own or rent property in turn led to the right to vote in local elections where the franchise was based on property ownership, or more accurately, liability to pay the local rates.  As you will see from the article above, two people were not entitled to a vote based on the same property.

It appears that Polling District 21, part of number 5, Scotland division, 1894/5 was split into male and female.

 

That was my thought. The lists used to be arranged alphabetically,  so it would make sense to also divide them into male and female, presumably to speed up the process of identifying the voter at the polling station, when people may not have known their ward, especially where the voting qualification came as a result of owning a business.

I don't think Mary's suggestion can be right because one of the qualifications to be allowed to vote was that you had paid your parish or borough rate up to date. Income tax as we know it didn't really affect most working class people. After the Income Tax Act of 1842 you had to have an annual income of £150 to qualify for income tax. In 1860 the average wage for an unskilled worker was around 2 shillings a day, so a typical annual salary might be about £55 bearing in mind people were only paid for the days they worked. Even by the 1930s a middle ranking civil servant (say the equivalent of a  higher executive officer today) would have been on a scale between £460-680 pa depending on length of service. 

I don't think Mary's suggestion can be right

No I quite agree, especially after Bert's explanation.  I just threw it in there as a thought. 

Keep throwing your thoughts into the arena, folks!

Thanks for everyone's comments so far - really useful.  I now have another query about Electoral Registers but it does relate to the sweet shop premises so I will keep going on this thread rather than link it to my other message re: Electoral Registers.

I have found some Registers (e.g. 1886/87) where both James Alfred and his sister, (Ann) Jane Peterson, are given the address of 249a Gt Homer St - I know the 2 families could have been living together as neither had more than one child at this time, but would the same address have given the vote to 2 people?

Also, there are couple of years were the Registers record 2 addresses for John Alfred e.g. one of the 1889-90 Registers records him at 8 Norgate Street and the other Register gives his address as 249a Gt Homer St and the 1890-91 Registers do exactly the same thing.  I understand now how 2 different Registers were compiled some years but it seems a bit odd that he happened to be flitting between the addresses for a couple of years.

Any thoughts on the matter would be gratefully received as always.

Gen

 

Glen,

 I don't have an immediate explanation. Can you describe the layout and other details on the registers, for instance the page headings and the column headings. For that era I would expect to see columns headed Name of Elector, Abode, Nature of Qualification and Description of Qualifying Property. The Page might be headed Occupation Voters  (other than Lodgers). Also on the extreme left, before the voter's number there should be a letter corresponding to those categories I mentioned in the other thread. Anything along those lines?

Andy

Hi Andy.  I've been looking at the Registers again and I think I am going dizzy looking at the different years - the 1880s  are getting mixed up with the 1890s and there are too many James Hibbins!

Firstly, forget what I said about Jane and James both being in 249a Gt Homer Street on the 1886-87 Register - there is an entry for James but not Jane (I know she was living at no. 249a in 1886 but she does not appear on the Register until 1896, hence what I meant when I said I was getting the years mixed up!).

However, I was right when I said I had found James at 2 different addresses on Registers for the same year and that this was repeated in consecutive years implying he hadn't just moved houses between the Registers being compiled (e.g. in one Register for 1888-89, James is at  8 Norgate St but in another Register for 1888-89 he is in the house and shop at 249a Gt Homer St and this is repeated for the 1889 and 1890 Registers).

None of these Registers have any column headings.  There is the voter's no., then the person's name, then the address, then whether it is  a house or shop and then the address again.  What I did notice when I re-looked at the Registers was that one Register seemed to record just a house address while the other Register recorded a house and shop address - sometimes these would be the same (as in the case of James) and sometimes different.  For instance, in one of the Registers there is a Charles Morris who appears to have a house at 30 Luther St but also a shop at 177 Skirving St. but this entry is in just one Register and so Charles has 1 voter's no. but James appears in 2 Registers and appears to have 2 numbers!

I've got myself in a right pickle with these Registers and it is really bugging me!

Glen

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