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General Genealogy

Help in understanding burial records, please!

By Gwebb1 |
General Genealogy

Hi all.

Just looking at the Burial Registers for St Mary's, Kirkdale, Cemetery and I notice that some of my relatives' entries have a number next to the grave number and I wonder if anyone could tell me the significance - the numbers do not seem to correspond with the number of people buried there.

For instance, I have an Elizabeth Gordon buried 3rd Oct 1858 in grave number 1138 and the number 3 is written after it.

William Thomas Gordon was buried 12th May 1863 in the grave and number 9 is written after the grave number.

Thomas Gordon was buried in the same grave on 30 Jan 1869 but no number is written after the grave number.

Anyone got any ideas?

Glen

I think it's the date payment was made, if you look at other burials, the end number, 3 in Elizabeth's case is before the burial date of the 6th.

All the other burials seem to follow the same pattern, a day or so before the burial.

Gosh, never thought of that, Bert! 

I wonder if you could also help me with a query about Anfield Cemetery.  I notice that graves in this cemetery are described as private, purchased and public.  I was following up a 'purchased' grave and was surprised (and disappointed if I am honest) not to be able to find it under the transcripted graves so I guess it is not going to have a headstone - I can find the grave on the cemetery plan.

I can't find anything on google about 'purchased' graves so can anyone help and perhaps tell me if they were just peculiar to Anfield Cemetery or did they exist elsewhere too.

Thank you.

Glen

It seems to me that a Private grave was owned in perpetuity, a purchased grave had a time limit on its ownership, set by cemetery or council.

The snippet from the Liverpool Mercury, 1865, throws another in to the mix, half purchased grave.

It appears that Half Graves which I assume are Half Purchased Graves, are/were for children and cremated remains.

Thanks, Bert - I've learned a lot there.  Reading between the lines, I guess there may have been something different in the Burial Deeds between a purchased and private grave.  Perhaps with a purchased grave you were paying for one person to be buried there whereas a private grave might be accesible for other members of the family.  What do you think? I think I may have read once (although goodness knows where!) that someone who bought a private grave had the right to be buried there - so presumably you could bury your spouse, grandparents etc in the knowledge you would also be buried in that grave when the time came.  Does this ring any bells with anyone?

Also, I suppose someone might buy a grave - whether purchased or private  - and then not have the money to erect a headstone.  I have an ancestor buried in Anfield Cemetery in 1899 - burial record says it is a private grave but no inscription seems to be transcribed anywhere so I am guessing there is no headstone.  I am coming over to Liverpool tomorrow for a 'graveyard trawl' but on this one I think I will just find an empty piece of grass, unfortunately.

Is there any way I could check on-line if anyone else is buried in this grave?

Glen

 

How I understand it is, the difference between  private and purchased graves is determined by time allowed to own the plot. I haven't come across anything that suggests a purchased grave is only allowed one burial. Different size graves were purchased to hold X amount of bodies and the size would reflect on the price paid.

Headstones were very much reliable on the ability to pay for one, unfortunately out of reach for many.

Is there any way I could check on-line if anyone else is buried in this grave?

Not that I'm aware, other than trawl through the records and hopefully get lucky, any details?

I think there's a cemetery office who may help, I can't remember where, hopefully Mary will. 

I think the office is at the Allerton Cemetery. A posting on a Rootweb page from several years ago gave this as the telephone number for the Allerton office:  0151-233 3004. No idea if it's still the same.

Also, lots of good stuff here for Anfield: https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~ormandy/history/page2.html You need to click on the search button on the top bar and you can then do a look up on a name, get the section number and grave number then do a lookup within the relevant section to confirm if there's a monumental inscription or not. I believe you can also do a reverse lookup using the grave number in the main index which should tell you if anyone else is in the same grave. I know you can do that with the Toxteth Park index which is/was also run by Rob and Rose Anderson, but never tried it with the Anfield one

Also it might be worth checking this thread in the old forum:  https://oldforum.lswlfhs.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5739

Allerton office:  0151-233 3004. 

More or less right, so far as I know the number is still the same but it's Allerton Cemetery Lodge, which is different to Allerton Cemetery.

Beware though that they used to charge £10 per cemetery per year for look ups, so if you don't know the names it could prove a costly business. 

Thanks to everyone who has taken an interest in my recent questions - I feel a lot more knowledgeable now!

I have had a look at the Rob and Rose Anderson site mentioned by Andy but I think my stumbling block is that there is no headstone on the 1899 grave that I was interested in.  It is definitely an approach I will bear in mind for future occasions though.

My paternal grandfather is buried with his sister and her husband in West Derby Cemetery and again there is no headstone yet I know of t least 2 other family mambers who are buried there and I will use the Allerton phone number to see if I have missed anyone.

Finally, just thought I would mention that I came over to Liverpool last week to take a look at some of the cemeteries that have come up in my recent research and that different members of the forum have given me information about.  Visiting St Mary's Kirkdale was really nothing to write home about but I knew that from what forum members had told me.  Shame though as I had about 6 close ancestors who were buried in the same grave there.

However, I found the St Mary's churchard near Alsop School really quite moving - thanks for your input on this, Mary.  Needless to say I couldn't find any of 'my' graves (I was going back to the 1700s!) but to be in such a genuinely old graveyard where my ancestors would have stood, I found quite mind-blowing and would recommend a visit to any fellow family historians.

Thanks to all, as always.

Glen

So pleased you had a great research visit, I always feel very moved when I stand in a churchyard or cemetery, almost as if I am going to come across those relatives by chance.

Died in the workhouse

By Manila Jack |
General Genealogy

I've discovered a burial record for a person who may or may not be a relative. His name was Mariano or Meriano Delacruz and was buried in Free Parochial Cemetery, Rice Lane, Walton on 28th February 1879.  The record says he died in the workhouse.  Would there be any records of which workhouse and would any workhouse records survive that may give me more information about this poor soul?

 

Thanks in advance. 

Thank you so much Bertieone.  I had the marriage and naturalisation records but not the other two from the workhouse.  The address 24 Frederick Street ties in with other information have.  Thanks once again.  Another piece in the jigsaw.

Ile De France Ships Manifest 1944

By MaryA |
General Genealogy

Hi all,

A friend in Canada has been looking for the manifest for her entry into Canada in 1944.  I have found the Index to Alien Arrivals at Canadian Atlantic and Pacific Seaports, 1904-1944 for both her and her mother, no real information given except the ages, 21 for mother and "5" for daughter, however I believe it should have been five months,  but haven't had any luck with finding the manifest.  Wondering if anybody else might have any luck in searching, below is the details given and what she already has.

The information that I am searching for is the ships manifest for the Ille de France sailed from the forth of Clyde, Scotland, on October 22 1944.

The ship sailed, unescorted, across the Atlantic Ocean arriving in Halifax Nova Scotia, some six days later.

The ship had war brides and their children on board, I was, as six months old, one of those children. 

My mother’s name was Vera Rose Dalrymple nee Nicholson. My name was June Anita Dalrymple.
I have searched many different places, including Pier 21 here in Halifax to no avail. The only thing found was my return sailing to Southampton, England in March 1947.

Hi all,

A friend in Canada has been looking for the manifest for her entry into Canada in 1944.  I have found the Index to Alien Arrivals at Canadian Atlantic and Pacific Seaports, 1904-1944 for both her and her mother, no real information given except the ages, 21 for mother and "5" for daughter, however I believe it should have been five months,  but haven't had any luck with finding the manifest.  Wondering if anybody else might have any luck in searching, below is the details given and what she already has.

The information that I am searching for is the ships manifest for the Ille de France sailed from the forth of Clyde, Scotland, on October 22 1944.

The ship sailed, unescorted, across the Atlantic Ocean arriving in Halifax Nova Scotia, some six days later.

The ship had war brides and their children on board, I was, as six months old, one of those children. 

My mother’s name was Vera Rose Dalrymple nee Nicholson. My name was June Anita Dalrymple.
I have searched many different places, including Pier 21 here in Halifax to no avail. The only thing found was my return sailing to Southampton, England in March 1947.

Looking at The National Archives, The Ile De France arrived on the Clyde on 11th October, arrived at Halifax on 22nd October and then on to New York and she arrived on 25th October. Maybe as the final destination was New York then searching for that record rather than Nova Scotia may help. 

Good luck, there does not seem to be a great deal of information on Ancestry, FMP or My Heritage.

No joy anywhere else. Wiki has details of the ship being converted to a prison ship in 1943 but seems to be a gap between then and 1947 when the return to UK manifest had the details.

I'm sure June's destination was Canada, but the ship's eventual one was New York. After that the next port of call was Glasgow again.

Hi Mary, 

It's doubtful if any passenger manifest for the Ille de France is on any of the commercial ancestry sites, and not likely to list passengers by full name if there is a newspaper record. However, all is not lost. Here is a link in Canada that will help your friend find the information she requires and the process involved to obtain a copy of her record.

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/immigration/immigration-records/…

Good luck

Hi Mary, John and Louis.

 I thank you for helping me with this. 
Mary found our names somewhere,however to get the ships manifest I suspect I have to go through the Canadian government , who to be honest, have not been very helpful to date. 

Getting  this information would conclude my search for my mother’s journey through life.

 Sadly, her marriage to my birth father, Ralph Dalrymple ( Sargent with the West Nova Scotia regiment). only survived three years and mother and I returned to England in March 1947, though I don’t know the ships name.

June Feswick

 

Hi June

Glad we were able to help a little. The link I posted outlines the procedure to follow to obtain your record. There are a few hoops to jump through which is typical of Government bureaucracy in any country, but the result should be worth it. The information you are seeking is still restricted by the Canadian government so will not be online.

The ship that you returned on was the 'Aquitania' which arrived at Southampton on the 25th March, 1947, from Halifax, Nova Scotia. It was a Cunard ship from the White Star Line. There is more information on the record which I will not post here.

The record is from:- Incoming Passenger Lists for UK and Ireland, 1878-1960

Hope this helps

Thank you so much Louis, we do appreciate information from our members who have more experience in fields that we don't, I knew I was right in suggesting June check out our forum, you never fail.

I'm not sure if she has an appropriate subs but I'll make sure she gets the fuller information.

Once again thanks you.

Help with finding adoption information for Marth Jane Martin

By Gwebb1 |
General Genealogy

Hi folks.

I've not followed up an adoption before so please forgive me if general information is already on the site - perhaps someone could nudge me in the right direction!

Martha Jane was born on 4th June 1906 in Liverpool, her parents being Lewis Hill Martin and his wife, Elizabeth Lawrence (nee Gordon).  Martha's father died a month later, and the fact that he is deceased is recorded on the christening record for 8 August 1906 at St Polycarp's.

Martha's mother then married James Wilson in 1909 and the 1911 census shows the family living in Irvine Street - the children Elizabeth had had with Lewis Hill Martin now have the surname 'Wilson' and the census suggests that she and and James had been married for 17 years!  Perhaps this was to save them from having to explain the births of the older children.

However, Martha is not with the family - at the time of the 1911 census she was living in Eastward Street, Liverpool with Thomas Gale and his wife, Catherine Jane, and 4 year old Martha is described as their 'adopted daughter' although her surname is still recorded as 'Martin'.  Could this be because the adoption had not yet been finalised at the time of the census?

The Gales were from the Isle of Man and subsequently returned there (Thomas Gale was killed in Flanders in 1917 and his papers give Isle of Man as his address).  I also know that Martha married Frank Scott there in 1928.

Ideally, I would like to form a timescale as to what happened to Martha after her birth e.g. when was she adopted, was it an official adoption etc?

Can anyone help or suggest what paper work might be available and how I can access it?

Many thanks,

Glen

 

Glen,

The first adoption act was 1926. So probably never went through official adoption.

Very likely an informal agreement between mother and Thomas/Catherine Jane.

Yes, Bert is right (when is he not?) However the adoption could have been been made formal retrospectively, after the 1926 Act had been passed, by asking the family court to make an adoption order. You don't mention what her surname was at the time of her marriage to Frank Scott, but if it was Gale, an adoption order may possibly exist. If one was made, the GRO will have a record of it in the Adoption Register which was set up by the 1926 Act. One specific reason for getting a formal adoption order was if someone wanted to get a passport in their adopted name. Obviously as Martha will have taken the surname of Scott at the time of her marriage, this probably wouldn't have been necessary in her case. Many informal adoptions were arranged by charities such as Barnardos or Coram as well as some religious organisations. If you wanted to find out if that was how Martha's adoption was arranged, there may be records available.

If you or a close family member are descended from Martha, you may be able to apply for the details to be released from the Adoption Register. More details here: http://www.adoptionsearchreunion.org.uk/search/dap/

As always, many thanks for your help, folks.  I had assumed adoptions had been formalised earlier in the 20th century.  Presumably, these informal adoptions were generally accepted and no stigma was attached, given that the information was shared with the person taking the 1911 census.

Martha's name was recorded as 'Gale' when she got married although I haven't seen the actual certificate.  Martha was my grandmother's cousin but I didn't know she existed until the weekend when a lady from Australia contacted - she is descended from the Martha's adoptive mother!  She has also sent me a super photo of Martha - this is what makes family history such a great hobby.

I'll do a little more digging and see what I can come up with e.g. when the family returned to the IOM.  I have also noticed that Thomas Gale worked for the railways, as did Elizabeth L's 2 husbands so that might be the link between the families.  I will take a look at the Adoption Register too, Andy.

Glen

Martha Jane Martin has got under my skin!

The lady in Australia has sent me some letterdsj her mother received from Martha during the latter half of the 20th century.

In one, Martha says she was 'fostered' when she was 13 months old (i.e. July/August 1907).  Although she does not mention her birth parents, she was in contact with her siblings and knew erxactly when the last 'Martin' child died in 1991!

My question is: does anyone know how long it usually took to organsise these adoptions/fostering arrangements and how common was it for the families concerned not to be related and yet the children to keep in contact with and know about their birth family?

Martha's father died a month after Martha Jane was born (her baptism record also confirms this) but by July 1907 her mother would have been heavily pregnanat with another man's child and she married this man some months after the birth - seems as though she gave up one baby in order to focus on another!  Any theories?

Glen

I can't really comment on how long the process of fostering/adoption might have taken, other than to say that because it was all totally informal (ie no local council social workers involved) it was probably pretty quick and simple.

I had a couple of theories about why Martha might have been given up. These were based on the assumption that Lewis and Elizabeth were relatively young and hadn't been married long when Lewis died: A young mother with no breadwinner, no savings and possibly having moved away from her own family when she married, together with the shock and grief of suddenly losing her husband, along with a young child (her first?) to look after, might all have been too much for her. There may have been post natal depression. Maybe the child was initially fostered as a short term expedient, but then she met James Wilson (the man who became her second husband) and he wasn't prepared to support a step daughter. You previously mentioned that James and Elizabeth indicated in the 1911 census that they had been married for 17 years*. Perhaps she was already having an affair with James Wilson before the death of her first husband, and the presence of Martha in the family home would have been a constant guilty reminder to the mother and her second husband of their adultery.

However it appears from a quick look on FMP that Lewis and Elizabeth were married on 31 December 1893 and had up to six children before Martha Jane came along (Lewis H b 1894, David George b 1896, William b 1898, Elizabeth Lawrenson b 1899, Annie Eveline b 1901 and Ernest b 1903) so clearly my earlier theory does not fit the facts. I see that at the time of the marriage Lewis's occupation was hunter. If you didn't already have the information, Lewis (sometimes Louis) Hill Martin was born in 1874 and baptised 28 June 1874. His death was registered in the third quarter of 1906, meaning that he was 32 when he died. The 1901 census has the family (less William b 1898) living at 17 Vescock Street Liverpool, with Lewis Hill Martin shown as a railway capstan man. This rather makes me wonder if 'hunter' shown at the time of his marriage should have read shunter (possibly an apprentice shunter given his age at the time). I can't find a press report of an inquest, although quite possibly his death was the result of an accident on the railways.

 

* Given that it was 17 years since her first marriage to Lewis, I think this is just the result of misinterpreting the census instructions, not an attempt to deceive.

Glen,

As you know the 1911 census only listed some of Lewis and Elizabeth's children (shown as sons/daughters of James Wilson although none of them were his). Clearly Martha was missing, but so too was the next youngest, Ernest. He was was born on 30 October 1903 and baptised at St Peter's on 4 Jan 1904. His father's occupation was listed as carter at the time. He died later that year with his death being registered in the third quarter. So that explains why he wasn't there in 1911.

You mentioned that Elizabeth was carrying James Wilson's child in the summer of 1907.  Do you know any more about the child as he/she also doesn't appear in the 1911 census. There is an Agnes Esther Wilson, mother's maiden name Gordon, whose birth was registered in West Derby in Q1 1908 and a death of an Agnes Wilson also registered in the same quarter. But the transcript on FMP says this child was aged 1 at death so it seems unlikely to have been the same child as Agnes Esther. The only other Agnes Wilson born 1908 whose death occurred around this time was registered in Q1 1913 in Prescot. Again this death doesn't immediately fit given that there is no Agnes in the 1911 census with the Wilson family. So I wonder what happened to Elizabeth and James's child?

There are a further 4 children born to parents Wilson/Gordon in the next 10 years: Bertha L b 1912, Hilda b 1913, and Edna M born 1916, all registered in West Derby, and a less likely Stanley G Wilson born in 1916 in Prescot. Do you know anything about any of these? Obviously the 1921 Census should provide confirmation about any further children. I mention this because any Wilson descendants are just as likely to know about any Martin family secrets as are the Gale descendants.

Thanks, Andy - I had not noticed William's birth before so I have now added him to my list of Martins.

In her letters, Mattie (aka Martha Jane) says she was 1 of 5 Martins (I find it interesting that she still closely associates herself with the Martins although she had been 'fostered' for 80+ years by then!) but I think Lewis and Elizabeth had 7 children although Mattie may have been unaware of the 2 who had died.  The children I have traced are:

Lewis Hill (1895-1966) - named after Lewis's father

David George (1896-1960) - named after Elizabeth's father.  Married Alice Ellen Bernard. Moved to Essex.

William (1898- 1898; 10 days old) - could have been named after Elizabeth's brother, with whom she was living in 1891

Elizabeth Lawrenson (1899-1962) - named after mother and grandmother.  Married a German and emigrated to America but this needs checking.

Annie Eveline (1901-1991) - married Harold Haigh and her death is mentioned in Mattie's letters.

Ernest (1903 - died aged 8 months)

Martha Jane (1906-1990s - need to confirm date of death) - 'fostered' by Thomas and Catherine Gale from Isle of Man in 1907.

Mattie also suggests in her letters that Elizabeth had 7 children with James Wilson but I can only find 4 (Sorry, Andy, Hilda and Edna do not have the correct parents).  These are the ones I have:

Agnes Esther (1907- bpt 1908) - born before parents were married.  Had a Catholic marriage to William Burns in 1931 (you were right, Bert!)

Josiah (1909-  )

Bertha Lawrenson (1912-1975) - music hall artist on 1939 census *

Victor (1914-1984) - music hall artist and died in Newcastle. *

* I would love to know more about these two!

Also, can anyone see any other children born to James and Elizabeth?

Thanks a lot.

Glen

 

 

Hi Glen,

Thanks for the update.  I thought that you would probably have more details about Martha's half siblings but just included what I had found for the sake of completeness. It looks as though Mattie/Martha outlived them all. However the fact that she kept in touch with so many of the siblings may perhaps mean that their descendants also have some of Martha's letters which include further details about her life and upbringing. It is certainly very odd that she alone, out of all the Martin and Wilson children, was fostered/adopted.

Agnes Esther appears on the 1911 census, aged 3 as Agnes, she was born on the 18th Dec, 1907.

She very likely went on to marry William Thomas Burns, 1931, Catholic marriage.

Thanks Bert. The reason I missed that before is that FMP only automatically displays the first 5 lines of a transcript and I failed to notice that there were two more hidden entries. At least that clears up that loose end. Not sure how much any of this really helps Glen with the Martha story, though.

Good morning, everyone.

Can anyone find Elizabeth Lawrenson Martin (d.o.b. 1899) on the 1911 census?

She is Martha Jane's sister.  Martha jane is recorded with her 'adoptive' parents at Eastwood Street, Liverpool under the surname 'Martin'.

Her siblings are with her mother and step-father (James Wilson) at Irvine Street and they are recorded under the name of 'Wilson' so I guess Elizabeth could be under either surname.  I have found an Elizabeth Martin, niece, living with a Sarah Martin from Oswestry but cannot make a link with my Martin family.

Anything anyone comes across would be appreciated.

Glen

 

Hi all.  Still on my quest to find more about Martha Jane Martin!

Can anyone find out for me who was living in 295 Edge Lane in 1930, please?

Martha's sister (Elizabeth Lawrence Alp - married name) moved to USA in 1924 but made a visit home in 1930.  The Incoming Passenger Lists show she then stayed at 39 Guelph Street, Kensington - I recognise this address as it was her aunt's.  However, she seems to have  travelled from America with Thomas Martin, a 44 year old teacher (not her husband), who stayed at 295 Edge Lane.  Neither Thomas nor that address have turned up in my research before.

Many thanks,

Glen

295 Edge Lane appears to have disappeared after 1921 (Electoral rolls) and doesn't show in the directories or the 39 register. In 1911 it was a Latter Day Saints establishment. 

Thanks, Bert, for checking that for me but what a strange find - I am sitting here looking at the Edge Lane address on the 'UK and Ireland Incoming Passenger Lists 1878-1960' and it definitely states '295'!  It is a typed entry so I cannot misread the number.

It would seem either that the clerk collating the information transcribed it incorrectly or the person writing it down originally misheard the address or the mysterious Thomas gave the wrong address!

I'll see if I can find him on other Passenger Lists - that might clarify the situation.

G

I did a little more digging and I'm beginning to think Thomas Martin may have had something to do with the Latter Day Saints.

The last Electoral roll I could find for that address was, George Albert Smith who was the president of that mission, 295 Edge Lane.

Apparently the mission moved 1933 I think.

The below is a 1927 passenger list, John A Widtsoe was President of the branch later on, notice his given occupation.

How fascinating, Bert.

I take your point - perhaps Thomas Martin's teaching role was something to do with the Latter Day Saints rather than him being a school teacher as I had assumed. 

I am as intrigued by how you are finding the information as I am by what you turn-up.   Have you been searching the Electoral Registers by address and if so, how do you do it?

G

Glen,

Yes I do search the electoral rolls for just the address, with and without the number, put the address in the keyword section and the required year in year box.

It does no harm entering the address in to google search bar, as I did once I found out it was a Latter Day Saints establishment in the 1911 Directory.

I found 2 Thomas Martin's associated with LDS, neither would have been 44 in 1930. I'm hoping it's not some strange coincidence that's thrown up from time to time and he has got a connection to Elizabeth.

Glen,

I was looking through the travel lists looking for Thomas Martin, teacher. 1936 leaving England for USA, Thos Martin (Professor) and wife Hattie.

You can find them, 1930 census, Thomas S Martin, Utah, 1940 census, Thomas L Martin.

 

Thomas Lysons Martin married Hattie Paxman, 1911, Utah.

 

Thomas Lysons Martin born 1886, Manchester, mmn, Lysons

 

James Martin married Mary Ann Lysons, 1884, Manchester, Father, Thomas Martin, Spinner.

 

Thomas Martin married Martha Robinson, 1857.

 

James Martin born 1866, Manchester, mmn, Robinson.

 

Sarah Ann Martin born 1864, Manchester, mmn, Robinson. The girl from the 1911 census living with Elizabeth.

 

Looks like the traveller with Elizabeth Alp, 1930 is the above Thomas.

.

Great work, Andy and Bert  - thnaky you for your time.

I hadn't seen the family trees, Andy - very useful as the Martin/Alp one filled in a couple of dates I didn't have and clarified a couple of issues (e.g. her sons born in USA were twins).

Bert, I'm tempted to think the Elizabeth Martin living in Bootle at the time of the 1911 census is indeed the one I am following and that there is a link with the Thomas associated with the LDS - do you agree?

I can't quite join all the dots though.  The 1911 census says that the head of the houshold (Elizabeth born 1835 in Oswestry) was my Elizabeth's aunt but dates - let alone names! - seem wrong.  John and Mary were the parents of the Oswestry Elizabeth (confirmed by her birth record and by working backwards on the censuses) but these names don't crop up in the family I have been folowing.  

Names I have been looking at are:

Elizabeth Alp nee Martin born 1899; parents: Lewis Hill Martin and Elizabeth Lawrenson Gordon.

Lewis Hill born 1844; parents: Lewis Hill Martin and Betsy /Elizabeth Thompson (this Lewis Hill died in Bootle Hospital 1886)

His father was Thomas Martin (d.o.b. abt 1820 perhaps?) but I don't know the mother's name.

I am guessing 'great niece' rather than 'niece' would be a better description of the relationship but I am still missing something!

G

Bert, I'm tempted to think the Elizabeth Martin living in Bootle at the time of the 1911 census is indeed the one I am following and that there is a link with the Thomas associated with the LDS - do you agree?

Yes I do. 

Good to have the confirmation, Bert!

Can you bear with me just a little longer - so Sarah Ann on the 1911 census is James's sister (although she is not on the Lysons/Martin tree Andy put me in touch with) and and their parents are Thomas Martin and Martha Robinson, right?

James is the one who married Mary Ann Lysons in Manchester and their son, Thomas, is the one who travelled back to England in 1930 with Elizabeth Alp - have I got it?

G

Hi all.

Turns out that Thomas Lysons Martin rather obligingly wrote a short autobiography in which he mentions sailing to Liverpool on May 15th 1930 (fits in with him disembarking with Elizabeth Alp), that he spent 2 days with President Widstoe at Durham House (i.e. Edge Lane address) and he also mentions visiting his relatives in Manchester and visiting again  in 1936 with his wife Hattie - fits in with what Bert discovered.

But how can the family be linked to the Elizabeth Martin (born 1835 in Montgomeryshire) on the 1911 census - the 'niece' relationship with either Sarah Ann or Elizabeth (born 1899 in Liverpool) doesn't seem possible.

Can anyone see a link between John and Mary from Montgomeryshire (Elizabeth's parents - I think mmn may have been Vaughan) and the Martins from Manchester?

G

I'm wondering if it is possible for her to have gone into a distant family and been claimed as niece even though this might not have been quite accurate, in a similar way to son in law and step son having a similar meaning.

Proving to be a difficult nut to crack!  A couple of possibilities have been found for the relationship between the older Elizabeth Martin and Sarah Ann (see later posts) but perhaps we need to look at the wider family circle for the link between the 2 Elizabeths.

G

You need to look at at least 2 census 1891 and 1881 as far as the relationship of Sarah Ann as niece is concerned,

1891, 100 Rosalind St.

John Martin 66 Head
John Martin 35 Nephew
Elizabeth Martin 56 Sister
Sarah A Martin 26 Niece

 

Elizabeth Martin aged 56 is the Elizabeth on the 1911 census, Sarah Ann is niece to the head of the household John, Elizabeth his sister.

 

1881, 11 Canal St,

 

Mary Martin57Elizabeth Martin46Sarah Ann Martin17John Martin25William H. Connolly24

 

Mary,57 and Elizabeth,46 are sisters, Sarah Ann, niece to the head Mary.

Mary, Elizabeth, John,66, (1891 census) are siblings.

If the above is correct, Thomas Martin,c1835, Sarah Ann's father, should be the brother of, John, Mary and Elizabeth?

Problem is, Bert, I can't square the circle. 

I had a look at the 1871 census and the Martins in Canal Street are as follows:

Mary   Head  widow  d.o.b. 1795   Wales Llansair.....(?)

Mary   daughter   d.o.b. 1823   Llandrinio, Montgomeryshire (the one on 1881 census)

John   son   d.o.b 1825   Salop St Martins

Elizabeth   daughter  d.o.b 1835  Salop Oswestry (the one on all the censuses looked at so far)

John  grandson  b. 1856  Chester (nephew on the 1881 census)

From this, I agree with you that John, Mary Jnr and Elizabeth are siblings and I'll add to that , Mary Snr must be the mother.

I then looked at the 1841 census and the following family was living at Upper Church St, Oswestry:

John d.o.b 1801

Mary d.o.b. 1796

John 1826

William 1825

Henry 1831

Elizabeth 1835

From this, I am deducing that that John and Mary are the parents but the dates of birth seem wrong for Thomas and John to be brothers.Also, on the 1871 census I found a William Martin born in Oswestry, married to a Sarah and living in Emley St, Bootle with a daughter called Sarah Ann born about 1865, who would have been Elizabeth's niece ........arghh!

I'd be tempted to think we had strayed into the wrong family and that the SA on the 1911 census was not related to the Thomas Martin associated with the LDS after all but the other coincidences seem a big ask.

All ideas gratefully received!

G.

 

Glen,

I might be picking you up wrong, if Thomas was a brother, born 1835 ish, that date would be with in reason compared to Mary, John and Elizabeth.

I know he's not on the 41 census, but neither is daughter Mary.

I think the 1911 census is correct, what's the chances of another auntie and niece living together on the same amount of census' same ages and birth places.

Have you seen the following concerning James Martin's Utah death?

No, Bert, I hadn't seen these death records before so thanks for that.

In his autobiography, Thomas L Martin seems to have been very proud of his father, saying that he was originally a miner but studied at weekends to become a watchmaker and a jeweller and that this was his profession when he moved to Utah (Thomas went out there first as a teenager and worked to get the passage for the rest of his family to follow).  This is a quote from the autobiography:

"He became a fully fledged jeweler and was accepted into the upper class in England."

Not so sure if the end of this sentence would have been true!

I'll post soon about your other comments re: the Martins.  My computer is playing up a bit at the moment so everything is taking twice as long!

G

.

Below is the birth reg for 1871 census son William, the mothers maiden name should be Hopwood, the name recorded is Adams. She was a widow when marrying William Martin and her previous married name Adams has been used. There is no registration for a Sarah Ann Martin with either Hopwood or Adams used.

Oh gosh what a tangled web family historians weave!  The Martins just seem to get more and more complicated.

Bert, I don't think Thomas (born 1835) can be the brother of Elizabeth (born 1835)  because the 1841 census indicates her parents were John and Mary (possibly with Welsh connections) while the autobiography I keep referring to and the Martin family tree on family search indicate his parents were James and Ann Jane from Belfast. 

Also, I've taken another look at William (Elizabeth's brother).  I found an interesting baptism record for Jan 1864 at Hulme St Mark's Church. It shows Sarah Ann, born Nov 13 1863, getting baptised on Jan 24th, together with her brother, William Henry, born 26 June 1861.  The father is William, a spoke cleaner and the mother is Sarah, formerly Ikin.  All this fits in with the 1871 census.

Now, here's the really intriguing part: the baptism also states that the couple were married at Winsford Old Church in 1854 but I couldn't track this record down on either Ancestry or Familysearch.

What did turn up was a marriage certificate for these 2 dated 21st December 1873 - it gives William's and Sarah's ages as 44 and 41 respectively, which roughly fits in with the census ages.  It also gives William's profession as being a 'lath cleaner', which was his father's profession on the 1841 census.  I think it was also Wm's on the 1861 census when he and Sarah were in Market Drayton.  The father's profession on the wedding certificate was 'cooper' - this bit does not fit but he had died in the 1840s so perhaps the son did not know exactly what his job had been.

It seems William Martin and Sarah Ikin got married twice, about 20 years apart!  What dose anyone make of that?!

G

Looks promising,

Perhaps porkies told about the Winsford marriage, having children baptised out of wedlock didn't go down well.

Just scratching an itch, you're probably aware Martha Martin remarried after the death of Thomas to John Wolstenholme, 1878, Father, Charles Robinson, Glass Blower. It's bugging me I can't find her daughter Sarah Ann, 1864, Manchester. The 1881 census below

Samuel Storey 23

Ellen Storey 21

Thomas Storey 1

Martha Woolstenholme 42

James Martin 15

Charles Martin 13

 

Samuel Storey23Ellen Storey21Thomas Storey1Martha Woolstenholme42James Martin15Charles Martin13

 

Perhaps just a coincidence, when Ellen Martin married Samuel Story, 1877, Manchester, a witness was Louise Hopwood, the maiden name of Sarah Adams who married William Martin.

Bert, I didn't know Martha remarried after Thomas's death - just another piece in this ever-expanding puzzle!

I think you could be right, Bert, that Martha's daughter, Sarah Ann, died sometime before the 1871 census as I cannot find her either (although I must admit that I have not looked at marriages).  Hence, it is unlikely she is the Sarah Ann on the 1911 census as we had originally thought.

Bringing together what we have found out over the last couple of weeks, I guess the Sarah Ann on that 1911 census is most likely to be the daughter of William, Elizabeth's brother, so making the aunt/niece relationship correct.  Given the baptism records for Sarah Ann and her brother William, I guess her mother was Sarah Ikin.

I'm not sure if we really have the evidence to say that the Elizabeth on the census (d.o.b. 1899) was actually the one who married Oswald Alp and went to America.  However, there is evidence to show that Elizabeth at least met Thomas Lysons Martin on her 1930 voyage back to England.  Would be a big coincidence if they were not related in some way but even if they were not, I have enjoyed learning about him and I feel I have been made aware of some real social history issues.  I've never looked into the life of a Mormon before and it has been fascinating.  Thomas's father (James, the watchmaker) seems to have been a fascinating character too  - he appears to have practised polygamy in Utah.

Been quite a learning experieince - thanks to all who have helped.

G.

 

I'm just pulling together the threads I have for Martha Jane Martin and thought I would run this past the forum:

I initially asked about adoption in 1907 but Mattie herself seems to have preferred the term 'fostering'.  I now know adoption was not formalised until 1926 (1928, apparently, in Isle of Man) but anyone know what the situation have been regarding fostering in Liverpool in 1907?

Cheers,

Glen

I believe all sorts of adoptions and fostering would be very informal and certainly very rarely would anything be put in writing.  I'm sorry to be so negative about this, but believe that the date you are looking at would be too early for any documented evidence.

Not being negative, Mary, just realistic.  I just wanted to make sure I had not missed something on this one and I will keep Bert's link for future reference.

I'm just intrigued by Martha's story: how she seems to have kept in rouch with the siblings she would never have really known yet not her biological mother, why she was still given the name 'Martin' on pension records in 1917, some 10 years after she had been fostered etc and. of course, the fact I have letters written by her and photos of her have added to my interest.  I'm also a little surprised at how open the whole family seem to have been about the fostering - my experience of these informal arrangements up to now have been a girl's illegitimate child appearing on one census as someone's grandchild and on the next they have become a son or daughter!

The lady who contacted me from Australia seems to be in the process of contacting Martha's granddaughter so it will be interesting to see if anything comes of that.  If it throws up anything significant, I'll do a follow-up post!

Many thanks, G.

Ashton in Makerfield or Ashton under Lyne

By stewpot1944 |
General Genealogy

John Barton, born circa 1820, appears in 1851 and 1861 censuses as simply born in Ashton, Lancashire. There appear to be two Ashtons in Lancs (plus 1 in Cheshire) and nailing down the right one would hopefully help me find a definitive birth record.
In 1851 he is 28 and living in Emma Ann Street, Liverpool; in 1861 he is is 39 and living in Old Hall Street. Is it possible to determine which Ashton is being referred to? I think his mother was Alice Barton but it would be good to be sure. 

.

Patrick George Molloy

By MaryA |
General Genealogy

Hi all, we are trying to keep our Help Desk going via email and requests for help to us from the Liverpool Library.  This is one that I'm a bit stumped with and hope you will be able to offer some suggestions.  I have asked Linda if she will join our forum so that in the event of any questions or results she will be able to retrieve them herself.  Just to mention that she has access to Ancestry.   Thank you all.

Below is a direct quote from the enquiry

Looking for - My great grandfather Patrick George Molloy

Born about 1891. Married Mary Jane Latham 25 Dec 1913 at St Nicholas Church, Liverpool. His father is called Patrick Joseph Molloy. He had two children Mary Eileen Molloy 4 Jan 1915 and George Patrick Molloy 29 Nov 1919. He lived at Highfield Street, Liverpool during the time of his marriage. His occupation was labourer as was his father’s.

I cannot find him on any census returns, although there are entries on electoral registers for 1919 – 1926 at Rothwell Street and I know that my family lived there so I assume that this is him, despite name stated as George Patrick Molloy. He could have used Patrick or George as his name. The family story is that he wanted to work on a plantation in India and my great grandmother Mary would not take the two young children abroad. My great grandmother remarried on 17 October 1933 declaring that she was a widow. I have been informed that there was an Uncle Vernon Molloy who I assume was his brother but I have not been able to link a Vernon to him.

I would love to know his birth details, where he was born and when? His date of death and country of death. If you could give me any guidance as to whether or not he might have gone to India, anything would be good. I have so little to work with and despite searching for many, many hours have not come up with anything conclusive.

I have used Ancestry records and tried looking through birth records, focusing on Liverpool and Ireland but his father has a very common name and I really only have the marriage certificate to work off. The family have not been able to provide a lot of information. I have been looking for a long time so any information or guidance as to where to look to get some accurate information would be really helpful.

Added by MaryA - The 1933 marriage of Mary Molloy to Denis Feeney is noted as West Derby, Register Office or Registrar Attended so possibly indicating an RC marriage, but not definite since the earlier of Mary Latham to Patrick George Molloy was at St Nicholas.

Connecting India and a Vernon Molloy, Vernon O'Brian Molloy died in Dartford, 1978, Vernon was born, 5 August, 1898, India.

Parents, Patrick Joseph Molloy, Alice Maud Mabel Wallace, Wallace is not recorded on Baptism records.

Patrick Molloy married Alice Wallace, 1888, India. Father, Thomas Molloy.

Patrick Joseph Molloy married again after Alice's death, marrying widow Mary Delaney, 1920, India.

Patrick George or George Patrick remains elusive, however a George Wallace Molloy was born to Patrick Joseph and Alice, 20 May, 1891, India, died, 1937 India. 

I think it might be worth investigating if George Wallace Molloy became George Patrick Molloy?

Thanks Bert.  I have quite a lot of information about Vernon and the Molloy family in India.  I just haven't been able to link my great grandfather to them.  He could possibly be George Wallace Molloy and taken on a change of name when he came to England, although I'm not sure why he would do that.   They were born in same year 1891 which is another coincidence.  Perhaps when the 1921 cencus return comes out I'll get a place of birth which would be really helpful.  

Wow I knew I was right to recommend her to join the forum, brilliant thanks Bert!  Linda has joined and I trust she will answer herself.

I lean towards George being his preferred name, apart from at his marriage, it appears on more records.

Is it used as first name on the childrens birth certificates?

From FIBIS (https://search.fibis.org/) database:

George Wallace Molloy buried St Joseph's church Lucknow 1937; occupation tailor. Entry Ref No SJD1526; Photo Ref No P1020199 - a  photograph of the grave can be obtained as follows:

Malcolm Speirs
To request a copy of a photograph, which will contain further detail, please contact Malcolm at ianmalcolmspeirs@btinternet.com and quote to him from the results page:

* The Reference Number
* The number of the film
* The full name of the Person of interest
* Your FIBIS Membership Number (if current) or 'Non-Member'

and he will handle the matter with you from then on.

John Pritchard

By BarbaraW |
General Genealogy

Hello again.

I am looking for the baptism of John Pritchard.  In the 1841 census he says he is 35, in 1851 46 and in 1861 50 (!!!)  

On his marriage certificate to Maria Wright in 1845 it says his father is Thomas Pritchard shoemaker (doesn't say deceased).  The two witnesses are George Pritchard and Ann Pritchard, his brother and his spouse maybe?  John was a book-keeper or solicitor's clerk so signed all certificates as does this George.  Maria and Ann made their mark X

I have found a baptism at St Nicholas on 6th February 1805, the father is Thomas Pritchard, of Prussia Street, a cordwainer and his wife Cicely Seddon.

I would like to believe this is my John, but with so little to go on I mean I don't even know if he was baptised at all or are there many early church records missing in Liverpool?

Kind Regards

Barbara

 

The couple had 9 children between 1795-1812, all born Prussia St apart from George, born Pall Mall.  Lancs Parish Clerks.

Thank you Bertie I do have these children from some time ago, but had put John on the back burner.  How do I know without a doubt that Thomas and Cicely are John's parents?

Barbara,

What addresses are on John's marriage cert and Maria's father's name?

Both of Limekiln Lane, I had a previous thread on the old forum where they got married sometime after the birth of a few of their children and you were all so helpful to me in tracking down the marriage.  Maria Wright's father was William Wright, flax dresser.

Trying to get some of the addresses to link up. We have young Thomas's burial, 1842, Limekiln Lane, aged 7. His baptism, 1836, Myrtle Street.

There is a Thomas Pritchard, 1838 Electoral Rolls, Holly Street late Myrtle Street.

Cicily Pritchard died 1824, Horatio Street. Anything with Horatio Street may prove the family connection to John.

Just to throw in, in the Gores 1827 Directory - John, book keeper, 58, Virgil street

No Thomas cordwainer/shoemaker.

Can't find Prussia street in either that or the Baines 1825.

We know Cicily died 1824, Horatio St. The 1823 directory has Robert Pritchard, Accountant, 5 Horatio St, possibly her son born 1794.

1827 directory, Elizabeth Wright, 5 Horatio St. Barbara does the name ring any bells, with a possible connection to Maria Wright?

I have done very little on this side of things but will check it out over the next few days.  I must say I have far more luck in my searches in little Cheshire villages than big places like Liverpool.

Borean Universalists

By Dianeb33 |
General Genealogy

Does anyone know where I can find information on the Borean Universalists and their Chapel in Bold Street?

I have just discovered that an ancestor was baptised there in 1825. The digital images of the baptisms are on Ancestry.

Apparently Universalists were Non-Conformists and eventually united with the Unitarians but I cannot find anything more about Borean Universalists apart from a reference in the Liverpool1207 blog that the Chapel was founded c 1823. Borean probably comes from the Greek for the north wind and means Northern.

Thanks

The elusive Clifford Smith update

By John O |
General Genealogy

Hi all, (Bert, this may be a good idea to hide behind the couch laugh).

I have been trying for a number of years to find the history of my wife's great grandfather, Clifford Smith. You may remember that he had 3 children by 3 different women, all called Alice (the mother, not the children!). Ancestry flagged up a match on my wife's tree, and I contacted the tree owner. It turns out that Walter William Smith, Clifford's son, had a daughter in 1944 who was already in my tree, but her husband was the man who is the tree owner that I contacted.

Walter William was divorced by his wife for cruelty, a trait he must have inherited from his father Clifford who was also a bully. 

It turns out, according to the tree owner, that the 3 Alices were the same woman, who for whatever reason changed her surname on every one of her 3 children's birth certificates. This tree owner says that Clifford and Alice married in Southwark in July 1915, even though I can find no record of it. The 1911 census has them being married for 5 years, and again no record. Maybe they said they were married due to having 2 children by 1911. 

Rumour has it that Alice ran off with a lodger in 1920 something. In 1920 she was living with Clifford at 23 Candia Street, according to the Electoral Register (presume the actual date would be 1919?). I'm hoping the 1921 census may shed some more light on that and them. Alice apparently left Clifford, with or without the lodger, due to cruelty and lived in the British Virgin Islands, and died age 103 and buried in London. More research needed.

The other spanner in the works is that the tree owner's wife, Walter's daughter, said that her father Walter was never forthcoming with anything, but did say that the elusive Clifford Smith was of French origin!! There was talk in the family of him changing his name, but we thought it was his forename. Maybe it was his surname that he changed to Smith indecision.

Back to the drawing board with a large glass of sustinance crying

 

Well I love that story laugh, as you can imagine I'm wondering just how much is true, we know how family tales are embellished.

One thing would be quite difficult to prove is the three Alices being one, I think the only way to be sure is if your DNA matched a descendant of each of them, and that would depend on enough people having tested.

Back to old fashioned methods to see if there's anything new we can find.

One thing would be quite difficult to prove is the three Alices being one

It would help if the original declaration forms could be seen to compare signatues.

They must be held somewhere?

Thanks as ever both. I have messaged Liverpool city council to see if the registers are available to view at St George's hall. 

My wife has taken her DNA test with Ancestry a few years ago and uploaded the results to various places. Her aunt has also taken a test to get one generation closer to matches, but it is very hard to pin down. As mentioned previously (probably several times) I was hoping to get a direct line male Smith to take a DNA test, but the only one alive is allegedly not a nice man. Apart from my wife's grandfather Smith, the rest seem to have been horrible!

Just thinking out loud to myself, my wife's grandad was in Merseyside police. I wonder if his father, flipping Clifford, had to be mentioned in dispatches somewhere when he enrolled or anything?

John,

I have what appears to be the complete service record (four A4 pages long) for a policeman who joined the Lancashire Constabulary in 1909, and it doesn't contain any details about the man's parents. It has his wife's details, and those of his children were added as they came along. However there is no place on the forms for parental details of the officer himself. I hope this helps.

If you will indulge me, here is a further update on the elusive Clifford. This is from his granddaughter Joan, whose father was Walter Smith, Clifford's son, and Joan's husband, who I mentioned previously:

"Clifford Smith, claimed his surname was actually Grevaise. He married Alice Barnes bigamously so changed his name to Smith. They had three children, George, Dora and Walter William Smith born 1912 died 2010. 

Alice Barnes, quite a lady eh? Clifford who allegedly married her when she left her husband, May well have lied about the married bit. She did run off with someone else, after George, Dora and Walter was born. At the time of Walter’s birth they lived in Liverpool. Son Walter moved to Wales briefly after he married. Walter, my father never referred to any of his family. Alice probably had several “ husbands” we never heard anything of her. Alice Barnes after having three children with Clifford ran off with another man. She apparently went to British Virgin Islands, but is buried somewhere in London. 

When Joan had her DNA done, she was mostly Welsh, some English and some French from northern France. We don’t know if the Gervaise story is true or not.

I dont know whether to laugh, cry, or just get pie eyed tonight, it moved the goalposts totally. Not sure whether the name is Grevaise or Gervaise, as both are mentioned. I can't see any births in the UK for either surname up until 1930 (supposedly being born c1871) or marriages to Alice, but Gervaise has quite a lot of birth entries from France, but nothing for Grevaise. crying.

 

I would certainly get pie eyed surprise and we will continue to look as best we can.  I'm wondering if there are any emigrations/immigrations listed for BVI, searching Gervaise/Grevaise is only the sort of  variations we expect with English names, we're just going to have to cope with foreign ones.  It gives us a bit of unusual practice.  I'll join you in that drink and perhaps my fingers might produce a correct spelling :)

Threlfall - Little London and Blowick, Southport

By big g |
General Genealogy

Hoping somone can solve a little problem I have re my husband's ancestry as follows:

His gt.gt.gt.gt. grandparents were Thomas Threlfall and Jennet Balshaw who married at St. Cuthbert's Church, North Meols, 22 November 1776.

Who was the father of this Thomas, brothers John or  James Threlfall ?  both had sons  named Thomas b.c. 1749 - one was in Little London, the other Blowick.

Comments please.

 

 

I have not yet found the occupation of John Threlfall who married Elizabeth Rymer, 1747.

James Threlfall who married Alice Rymer, 1747 was a Husbandman (Farmer)

Thomas Threlfall who married Jennet Balshaw was also a Husbandman, perhaps followed in his father's footsteps and worked the land.

Assuming that is the above marriages are correct?

Bert, Thank you for that information which I didn't have.

 I have found a Bond of Indemnity re a child born to Jennet Swift - John Threlfall 1743  - by a John Threlfall 1720, whose ma was Aliss Threlfall, widow of Thomas. It states John 1720 to be a husbandman.

G.

I've been having a little look at your problem. I think your Thomas is the Thomas son of James and Alice Threlfall of Blowick baptised 25 Feb 1749/50. The reason I think this that your Thomas and Jennett Threlfall is because their first children James 1777 and Thomas 1782 are both given the abode of Blowick (James) and Little Blowick (Thomas) at their baptisms at St Cuthbert Churchtown. Then Thomas and Jennett move to Halsall presumably because now Thomas can afford to lease land there. There subsequent children except for Alice are brought back to St Cuthbert Churchtown for baptism. Alice 1783 was baptised at St Cuthbert Halsall, perhaps she was too poorly to be taken to Churchtown.

There are two wills that might help with this family. Thomas Threlfall of Blowick Yeo and left a will 26 June 1811,and James Threlfall of Halsall left a will January 1825. James was buried on 29 Dec 1824 at Churchtown from Halsall. His wife was buried at Churchtown on 15 Jan 1826 also from Halsall. The original wills are held at Lancashire Archives, however they have been filmed and are available on Family Search.

The other Thomas Threlfall lives,as far as I can see, in Little London and possibly at one point in Marshside and then Little London again. I can't see that he or his father John left wills. I can't see burials for them yet.

Hope this helps

 

 

If you go  www.old-maps.co.uk website and put Southport into the search box, then open the first map dated 1848 scroll to the right following the railway line, you will pass Little London and then you will Lower Blowick and Threfall's House. Hopefully the wills will confirm that as the family house. I haven't yet managed to completely place it on a more modern map. I'm working on it!

Hilary, Thank you so much for all that info - so helpful. I didn't know where Little London was, knew that  Blowick was somewhere near the gas works?

I can always rely on knowledgeable members on this site.  Thank you.

 

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