Join us for full benefits and know that ‘You’ll never search alone’ with your Liverpool and South West Lancashire Family History Society.

General Genealogy

Finding my Aunt

By Ancestry |
General Genealogy

Through submitting my DNA to Ancestry, I am now matched to a Lloyd family in Southport. I initially was looking for my biological father, who appears to be a member of the Lloyd family. George and Florence Lloyd had at least 11 children, I have managed to trace 10 of them, one girl (my aunt) I just cannot find. I am hoping one of your members may be able to shed some light on her. She is Bertha Lloyd born at home at 12 Broome Road, Birkdale, Southport on 1st April 1926. I have her birth certificate, but nothing else. I just cannot find any further information out about her.
One small thing that is different with her certificate, is that her father registered her birth, when all the other babies born the mother registered them, this made me wonder if the mother on this occasion was not well enough to go and register the birth, if that was the case then maybe she had a difficult birth and something happened with the baby.
I started to wonder if Bertha was a still birth, but if that was the case, I wouldn't have got a birth certificate, as they only started recording still births a year after Bertha was born.
I have other birth certificates for infants who died at a few months old, so I don't feel that is the problem here.
I have also researched the deaths and burials of all these children, and they are all buried in various graves in Duke Street Cemetery, but again no mention of a Bertha.
My last resort was wondering if she went overseas, but again I can't find any information to help with this. The rest of the family stayed around Southport apart from the eldest girl who moved to live in Essex.
I would love to know if any of your members know this family, or can help in any way as to where I can look as I am stuck.
Thank you so much.
Irene

I'm assuming you have identified the family living at 14 Broom Road in the 1939 Register.  George, Florence, Margaret and Maria are the oldest members of the family listed, younger siblings are a Jean and a Grace.

In between Maria and Jean there is a gap of eight years, and one child redacted, presumably not yet identified as having deceased so we are unable to see it.  Have you identified three children to fill in that gap? and have you confirmed why they may not be shown, ie deaths of two of them? so as to attempt to identify who is the redacted entry?

Hi Mary
I have looked at all the census etc., not many of the children are listed, the two boys went to war so I suppose that's why they are not listed. Two of the other children died, one 19 months old and the other at 8 years old. I have death certificates for all of them except this Bertha, so I know all the others made it to adulthood and married. The parents of these children are my grandparents, so all children are my aunts and uncles and one is my biological father. Just don't understand why I can't find Bertha, all the others have been straightforward. There is a gap as the father Peter George went to fight in WW1. I have tried to upload a document for you, but it failed, saying the file is too large. Irene

Have you looked into this marriage?
Bertha Lloyd, John R Whitehead, 1971, Southport.

It doesn't appear any children were born to this couple which may suggest both of an older age.

Good Morning,
Yes I got the marriage certificate for those two names, but Bertha's father is listed as a Charles Lloyd, so not the right lady.
But strange on the certificate, it states Bertha Whitehead formerly known as Bertha Lloyd.
Her birth certificate has George Lloyd as her father, which is correct.
I have pondered about this, but with the wrong father on the certificate, I have now ignored it. wish you could upload pdf's. I could put up the certificate.
Thank you
Irene

Thank you.

Irene

There's a death of a John Royle Whitehead, 1987, Eastbourne, aged 90. Probate gives the address, 28 Forest Rd, Southport.
Worth looking into the address if you can. I know its a big age difference with your Bertha, but still a possible.

Good Morning
Thank you very much for that, I will look into it, I have the marriage certificate for a Bertha who married a John Royle Whitehead, but its the wrong father listed. But it is a link I can explore.
Thank you.
Irene

Irene,
Google, Convert PDF to JPEG free.

Do the ages match for Bertha on the marriage cert, are the fathers occupation similar or same?

Hello
Thanks, I didn't know you can convert files, I will attach the certificate if its not too large.
To be honest the writing on the certificate is poor, I can't make out the ages of them when they married, doesn't help me. I can't make out if they were in their 40's or 70's. Bertha's father on the certificate is Charles, well her father was George, their occupations are quite different.
Earlier today I ran off a copy from the 1939 Register, at an address in Southport of 54 Avondale Road, where it shows a John Royle Whitehead living, status married, but no wife listed, a Bertha Whitehead is listed but down as single and born in 1896 same year as John, so that's not her. Real strange one this. Irene

Hi Bertieone
Forgot to mention, the John Royle Whitehead on the marriage certificate is the same John on the 1939 Register, as he is listed as having the same occupation, working in customs and excise.

JRW's wife was Lottie Maud Whitehead, nee Cowen and was living in Liverpool and died in 1970, hence the 1971 marriage.

At least we can now dismiss Bertha Whitehead

I repeat my question above, second post down.  Without me working out all the children, a list of which you already appear to have, I would prefer you to state them and determine whether one of the redacted entries might be Bertha, or not.

I have been looking at the 1939 Register, most of the children are listed there, with the exception of Florence, Lilian and Bertha, who would all have been at school. I am now in the process of sending copies of death certificates to Find My Past, so they can include the two deceased people in the report. On the report it shows one line as closed. I am not sure what the reason is for these closed lines. I am just keeping my fingers crossed that it may refer to Bertha. I have also been advised to contact local Funeral Directors who were operating from 1926 to see if they have any burial record for Bertha. I still have a funny feeling that she died young, but could of course be totally wrong. All her siblings records have been straight forward to find, but nothing for Bertha, its like she disappeared from the face of the earth.

Have you looked at this death,
LLOYD, BEATRICE age 0
GRO Reference: 1926 J Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 911
There isn't a birth registration for this child in the previous 12 months, perhaps a name mix up at either registration?

Oh, thank you so much, any lead would be fantastic, I will certainly look at that. You are quite right to suggest a different spelling of the name. When I was looking for another record, for a birth for Maria I looked of course for a mother named Ratcliffe, but I eventually found the record with the mother being recorded as Rockcliffe. I have had a response from Find My Past and they will not open this record, reason being "The reason for this is the person in question is not within this household" I find that strange as if the person was a visitor they are usually recorded. This has made me curious now as to who it was. Many thanks again. Irene ps in this case the father registered the birth so maybe he made a mistake.

The above information is from the GRO
Below same child recorded Free BMD
Deaths Jun 1926
Lloyd Beatrice age2 Ormskirk 8b 911
Nothing runs smooth.

Good Afternoon, I have got a certificate from the GRO and this Beatrice is the correct child. She died 2 hours after birth due to a premature birth and lacking vitality. Her aunt registered the death, so maybe that's why she got the wrong name. I am so grateful to you for all your help. I now have all the information for this family. But I have my maternal ancestors to work on now, I'm doing okay, but again have one child I can't find the birth record, I have the baptism and death records, if they are correct of course, so I shall try looking for this little baby under different names, see what I can come up with. Once again many thanks for your help.

I have received my latest copy of your Journal, really good articles in it. I have ordered a copy of Professor Frank Neil's book Black 47. Starting to do research now on my maternal side of my family, all my ancestors originate from Ireland, I have found it very hard to find Irish records for the 1800's, Some of my ancestors came over from Ireland to Liverpool during the 1800's maybe because of the famine. I am hoping that some of the information in this book may help. Thank you for referencing it in the Journal.

Graves St Martins in the field Sylvester St, Liverpool

By Munchkim |
General Genealogy

Does anyone know where the disinterred from St Martin in the field, Sylvester St Liverpool were reburied ? Would it be Rice Lane ?

Help with a badge please

By MaryA |
General Genealogy

Here is a link to a photograph, never used flickr before so if it doesn't work then let me know and I'll have to do something about it.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53123533793_cefee58ac3_m.jpg

My thoughts are that inside the oval are the initials ER with a crown on the top and possibly Prince of Wales feathers at the bottom.

The gentleman wearing the blazer was born in 1930 but may not have been the original owner of it.  Wondering if the photograph may have been taken in a pub in Liverpool or Bootle and probably taken sometime after 1956.  He did actually do National Service sometime before 1950 and was on communications in Germany.

Mary,
Very difficult to see, however from your description, if they are not the Prince of Wales feathers, possibly Royal Engineers blazer badge, long shot though.

Any writing you can see?

Unfortunately not, it seems to be a typical poor quality photograph of its time, I must admit we think he was a bit of a wide boy and liked to wear the blazer to make more of himself, but it could have been second hand.

 I'll check out the Royal Engineers, thanks for the suggestion.

Hi Mary,

Speckled Jim landed,

Enlarged the best I could, it's not Royal Engineers. It does look as if Prince of Wales feathers at bottom. Hopefully more help incoming.

shipwright on census records

By expat2021 |
General Genealogy

Hallo everyone, I would be very glad if someone could settle this argument between me and my son (a joiner by trade).
Our 3rd, 2nd and 1st great-grandfather are shipwrights in the 1851, 1861,1871 census' in Liverpool.
Son says they could saw through a plank of wood and drill a hole, but could not build a ship or boat.
Does anyone know what they could do?
Best regards,
Pat Maack-Mooney

I'm a Shipwright by trade and I can assure you I can do more than saw a plank and drill a hole. Rather than me type away, just google Shipwright.

I have to ask did you drop your son on his head as a baby?

Thank you so much for your responses to my posting and I apologise for the delay in writing this. Sorry for exercising you with my flippant post.
The operative words I forgot to put in were “could not write” i.e. parties signing on marriage license records with their mark, when they have been described as a shipwright (can’t find the records again). I asked myself how they could build a boat if they could not read or write. The not dropped on the head son, said they did it with stencils (I think he was sending me up). But this could not have applied to the men who designed the boat. I think the answer is going to be complex.
Looking again at the records in my family, they always signed with their name and must have enjoyed a high level of education as one was a customs and excise officer in 1781.
I could not find a definitive answer to this when I googled it i.e. could a shipwright always read and write, and I don’t have access to books which would help me.
I am in total awe of this profession.

For anyone who is interested in seeing traditional wooden boatbuilding techniques being applied in a modern setting I can thoroughly recommend this Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/SampsonBoatCo/videos
Leo Sampson Gould introduces each episode with a brief explanantion of what the project is all about, and you only need to select one episode at random to see the incredible woodworking skills he and his team display.

Edward Langridge

By adesso |
General Genealogy

I have posted about Liverpool ancestors with great success in the past with the help of Bert and Mary. This is about Kent but I still hope you can help.

My 4x great grandad was Edward Langridge born circa 1791 in Kent I believe. (Possibly Pembury) He married a Sarah Dickenson on 27th November 1824 in St Mary’s Newington Surrey( I believe it’s Southwark area) On the 1841 census he is a yeast vendor living in Pembury. His son Thomas is my 3 x great grandad born in Pembury circa 1833.
Thomas Langridge seems to have married another Dickenson…. Elizabeth Dickenson whose parents Daniel Dickenson and Harriet Kennard were also married in St Mary Newington.
Now Thomas’ sister Sarah Ann Langridge states her place of birth on census entries as Pembury but there is a record of her birth at Saint Saviours Southwark with father Edward Langridge a yeast vendor. This is in the Newington area as well.
As I understand, the Langridges and Dickensons are Kent families so what is this connection to Newington/ Southwark?
Thomas married Elizabeth Dickenson… the same surname as his mother. Did he marry a cousin?
The GRO entry for the birth of my 2x great grandad William Ernest Langridge confirms his mother was Dickenson. 1865 Tunbridge.Parents Thomas and Elizabeth Langridge.
I’m head scratching … why Newington/ Southwark and did Thomas marry a cousin?
Any help most appreciated
David
From Hampshire

A contact in Kent tells me that Edward had a will and talks about a pub or business in Southwark… ‘Catherine Wheel Inn Southwark’… perhaps that’s the connection as he was a yeast vendor???

Edward seems to have been in partnership with a Henry Gander, a yeast merchant in the Catherine Wheel Inn Yard in Southwark. What’s interesting is a John Dickenson is listed as a former innholder in 1791. The name Dickenson turns up again. Could John be the father of Sarah Dickenson the wife of Edward?
I’m still curious as to Thomas Langridge’s wife Elizabeth Dickenson and whether they were cousins. Any help is appreciated.

Hi sorry for the delay in coming back to you, you don't mention if you know Edward's death date?  I think it would help to pin things down if you found it and actually obtained the Will yourself, these often contain a lot more information than expected, sometimes mentioning relationships between people.

Wills nowadays are extremely cheap, purchase from the GRO at only £1.50 but to save searching year on year, narrow down the date first.

Have you also tried a local family history forum? there is an excellent one for London, Westminster and Middlesex where people might be more knowledgeable about local history, places and events.

Will continue to look and see if I have any more thoughts.

Hello
Edward Langridge died in Pembury Kent in 1842. Yes I have read the will.
I wanted to find Sarah his wife’s parents. She was born around 1806 in Kent I think. The link to Southwark I think I have figured out. But how it came to be that Thomas their son married another Dickenson (Elizabeth) is a mystery unless they were cousins. I have feeling that the Dickensons may have taken over the pub in Southwark in 1791 and some of the family moved there. John Dickenson is the innholder in 1791.
Am on to some local history groups there but no breakthrough on the cousin issue.
Elizabeth’s parents seem to have been born in Kent but married in St Mary Newington Southwark like Edward and Sarah.
Thanks for your help. Let me know if you find something,
Regards
David

By the way.
On the marriage record for Daniel Dickenson and Harriet Kennard (parents of Elizabeth Dickenson) Henry Gander is listed as a witness in St Mary Newington Southwark. 17th July 1834. Henry being the yeast merchant and innholder of the Catherine Wheel Inn pub in Borough High St Southwark and business partner to Edward Langridge.

Daniel Dickenson,Harriet his wife and daughter Elizabeth on 1841 census living in Pembury.
I wonder if Daniel is the brother of Sarah Dickenson the wife of Edward? And that Thomas Langridge and Elizabeth when married were cousins?
Perhaps the Dickenson and Langridge families moved to Southwark for a while as their business related to that Catherine Wheel Inn on Borough High Street and that’s why Edward and Sarah, Daniel and Harriet married in St George’s Newington Southwark? Possibly why Sarah Ann Langridge (daughter of Edward) was baptised in St Saviours in Southwark.( Born 2nd August 1830.)

Royal Navy records

By John O |
General Genealogy

Hi all,

I have found a member of the Orrett family who was on a HM Cutter called 'Goodwill' in the mid 1700s, which sailed out of Liverpool. Familysearch has birth records from Waterford for a couple of children with the father, John Orrett being a surgeon on said ship. Does anyone know where I could look up this ship's records? The National Archives have a few articles, unfortunately not able to download.

I'm interested as some Orretts born in Waterford turned up in Jamaica, and I'm wondering if the Goodwill stopped there on her travels.

Many thanks as always.

John

I believe Findmypast would be the place to check, but not sure if that is only for Merchant Navy, worth a try in the library though.

There are definitely records in the National Arhives, however, as you say not available to download, but some say "not on site", I wonder if they cuold be asked where they are held, maybe not much help as likely just as far away, but just a thought.

Mary Catherine Dobson nee O'Neill

By Peter B |
General Genealogy

Having made progress in tracing my English ancestors I am now focussing on my Irish ancestry but have made little progress for a number of reasons. I wonder if anyone can help me by explaining the inconsistencies in the census records of Irish people in Liverpool from the mid 19th century to the early 20th century. One example relates to my great grandmother Mary Catherine O'Neill who married my great grandfather John Dobson on 29 July 1888 at St Alban's Church. In the 1901 Census Mary is shown as aged 34, born "Ireland". She is living with her husband John a docker aged 35, and their daughter Margaret, aged 11, both were born Liverpool. My grandmother Jane Dobson is missing from the 1901 despite being born in 1900.

In the 1911 census Mary's birth place is substituted as "Resident Belfast, Ireland" and she is still living with her husband John as aged 45, who is still a Dock Labourer. and their children, Jane, aged 10, at school; Robert, aged 8, at school; Mary, aged 6, at school; and Sarah, aged 3, all born Liverpool, Lancashire.

The 1921 census records Mary Caterina (Catherine) as aged 55, born" Wexford" and living with her husband John, aged 56 an out of work docker and their children.

I am as sure as I can be that these records are for my family because the addresses and the children's names and ages are correct based on my late mother's recollections. I also know that ages are often misstated due to uncertain memories and Irish names misspelt by the enumerators but the variation in the places of birth make it impossible for me to research in the Irish records. Interestingly Mary's mother Mary Ann O'Neill nee Garrity is also shown as born in Ireland in 1901 census and Wexford in the 1911 census. She was also living in Arlington street in 1911.

Has anyone solved this type of problem in their research? I would be grateful. for any suggestions

Hi welome to the forum.  In our experience we have often found that earlier censuses only give the place of birth as "Ireland" and we feel very lucky that the 1911 census is often more explicit often giving the County in Ireland, ie Wexford.  The notation "Resident" usually means that, although born in a different country, they are now and have been living in England long enough to be classed as resident.  If you would please give the references for the 1911 census we'd be pleased to take a look and maybe others would also give their thoughts. 

Hello
Thank you for responding so quickly. The census references for Mary Catherine O'Neill are,

1901 Census: 16 Denbigh Street, Kirkdale, Liverpool, Lancashire.
(RG13 Piece 3409 Folio 171 Page 42)
1911 Census: 21 Arlington Street, Kirkdale, Liverpool, Lancashire.
(RG14 Piece 22468 Folio - Page - )
1921 Census: 230 Arlington Street, Kirkdale, Liverpool.
(RG15 Piece 17679 Schedule 247 Code D District RD 455 RS 6 E
I look forward to any guidance you may be able to give me in sorting this one out.
Kind regards
Peter

I think you will have to consider researching both locations.

I lean towards Belfast being the place of birth or at least explore that possibility first. The 1911 census has the enumerators additions because of questions not being answered completely. I suspect you know the 1911 was filled in by a family member and any received additions was verbally to the enumerator who then added where appropriate. The problem was, some gave where they were raised from an early age as their birth place rather than their actual birthplace.

Patrick Finegan Baptism

By Phil F |
General Genealogy

Could someone with a subscription to RootsIreland please look up an Irish baptism? All of the other sources tried have not found him. I'm assuming that he would have been baptised.

It's for Patrick Finegan who was born in Monaghan about 1830-34.

Census returns show Patrick with his parents, Edward Finegan and Catherine, in Great Crosby in 1851. In 1861 he was still in Great Crosby and then in Birkenhead in 1871 & 1881. Patrick's recorded age isn't consistent, hence the birth date range. The 1881 census gives his birthplace as Monaghan, the rest just show Ireland.

Patrick married Frances (Fanny) Cooper in SS Peter & Paul Church, Great Crosby in 1855, a Catholic church, so a Catholic baptism would be expected.

Many thanks,
Phil

I'm afraid I don't know anybody with a subs for that site, however the one we use most often is https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/ which tends to be added to on a semi regular basis, although obviously it depends on the transcribers and where they are located, as well as whether they have been allowed access to the Parish Registers in question.

Photo Identity

By Toffeeman64 |
General Genealogy

Hello. I guess this is a bit of a long shot but thought I'd try anyway...

My father, John Barclay Barr (born Liverpool 21/11/25) passed away last year and we've been gradually going through his belongings, which include a number of old photographs. The photo attached isn't annotated with a name but I'd like to identify the individual if at all possible and wondering whether posting it here will help with that. I'm guessing that the photo is from 1920s/1930s from the time that my father was growing up in Liverpool (he moved to the Isle of Man in, I think, 1939) and I'm assuming that it was someone important to him so it would be wonderful to put a name to the face.

Any help/suggestions would be very much appreciated.

Many thanks, Ian Barr.

Death of Philip Trainor 1870s

By Gwebb1 |
General Genealogy

Hello folks.
As you can see, the Trainors are still causing me problems!
I am trying to find the death of Philip Trainor, born in Ireland about 1817 and married to Sussanah. He was a labourer on the docks.
At the time of the 1861 census he was living with his family in 48 Essex St.
By the time of the 1871 census, his wife is named as head of the household at t6his address and the census states she was married and a 'labourer's wife'. Although Philip is not living with her, his name remains on the Electoral Register for 1871, 1872 and 1873.

His son Philip was married in 1877 and the marriage certificate states Philip Snr was dead by then. The most likely death record is for a 52 year old Philip Trainor who died following an accident at the docks in August 1871 (I have the death certifcate and a related newspaper report).
The only problem is that this Philip was lodging at $ court Brindley Street at the time of the 1871 census and he is described as a widower so how does this fit in with the census record for Susan and why would his name remain on the Electoral Register until 1873?
As always, any ideas would be gratefully received.
Glen

Glen,

I wouldn't be too concerned about the Electoral roll, Philip wouldn't be the first person to be included after death.
The 1871 census, Essex St, Susannah has probably answered the questions as honestly as she could, it's unlikely she would want, abandoned by husband, if she was, recorded. If the son is telling the truth at his marriage and his father was deceased, the only fit is the Philip you have. I've tried to connect the deceased Philip to another family without success.

That's good enough for me, Bert. I'll take it that the records I have referred to do indeed relate to 'my' Philip. I guess he may have said he was widowed when he moved into lodging so that he didn't have to explain he had abandoned his wife - or been kicked out!
The Liverpool Mercury report about his death says Philip was 'hurt by a sack' while he was working on the docks and died of a strangulated hernia the following day.
As always, thanks for checking it out for me, Bert.
Glen

Subscribe to General Genealogy