My G G Grandmother, Henrietta Stewart, married John Barton in 1847 and on the birth certificate for just one of her children she records her name as Henrietta Sherlock Barton, nee Stewart. Sherlock was the puzzling bit - where had this come from?
Her father, Robert Stewart, was a retired sergeant major in the 29th foot, so I wrote to the now Worcestershire regiment to see what records they had for him and to see if they could shed any light on the name. No Robert Stewart on their records anywhere. In a moment of inspiration, I asked if they had any records for Robert Sherlock instead and there he was!
Robert Sherlock was born in Co. Carlow and, after serving in the Wexford Militia, he enlisted in the 19th foot regiment in September 1812. He served for almost 25 years, and at one time was based in Mauritius for around 8 years. This is where Henrietta says she was born. He retired, as a sergeant major, in 1834.
Any thoughts on why he changed his name to Stewart? Was it because he was Irish but had served in the British army? And when? I can't think he did it while he was serving - I don't know if the army would have allowed that.
If he absconded he wouldn't have reached the rank of sergeant major, effectively most senior rank for soldiers at that time, equivalent to a Warrant Officer Class One today. He served for the full 22 years which was fairly standard for a career soldier.
Stewpot. If you can find his Chelsea Hospital Pension records this may provide some information, as they would have needed to know of any change of name if this occurred after he left the army.
Many thanks. I found his Examination of Invalid Soldiers record and some other service records but no indication of why he changed his name. Where is the real Sherlock when you need him?
Mary nee Fearon lived in Liverpool from birth in 1846 but I cannot find any reference to her death although I know it was between 1891 and 1901. Any information would be great. Thank you. Keltis
I think it's possible a mistake has been made, the below marriage has Margaret Elizabeth Tisdale with a father James Fearon, Mariner.
I can't find a previous marriage for Margaret Elizabeth Fearon to a Tisdale or variations of the name, I'm thinking this is Mary Elizabeth Tisdale/Fearon.
Thanks, but there's nothing in the Workhouse Registers relating to that date. I'm going to have to check quite a long list of entries with the same name all in Liverpool, which I don't have time to do this evening, but will trawl down them tomorrow. Problem is we aren't going to be too sure what address she's entered from, I wonder if the 16 year old Jane Tisdale might be someone worth searching for, in case they both went in together? Have to leave it with me and I'll get back to you asap.
MaryA - please hold off doing all that scrolling tomorrow until I assimilate all replies. Mary Elizabeth Tisdale lived in Duckinfield Street in 1891 when her husband John was admitted as a patient but died in there.
John - Mary was still alive in 1891. Mary Ellis was a lodger with Dorricott family
Bert - thanks but I can't read certificate as it's blared. I'm not looking for any Margarets, I'm looking for Mary Elizabeth Tisdale won was born Fearon.
If you click on the marriage certificate image, it will expand and better to view.
I know exactly who you are looking for and I will try to offer a more detailed explanation.
The marriage between James Henry Ellis and Margaret Elizabeth Tisdale, the brides name has been entered incorrectly.
I suspect by mistake rather than given deliberately.
It should read Mary Elizabeth Tisdale, her father given as James Fearon, Mariner, makes her, nee Fearon.
Further proof, there was never a marriage between a Margaret Elizabeth Fearon and a Tisdale or variations of the name, therefore, Margaret Elizabeth Fearon/Tisdale never existed.
The 1901 census has Mary E Ellis living with the Dorricott family and Jane Tisdale.
Elizabeth Dorricott. nee Tisdale, Father, John Tisdale, Butcher, is the daughter.
Jane Tisdale later married William Rowland, 1912 Liverpool, Father, John Tisdale, Butcher, is the daughter.
Mary E Ellis, nee Fearon, formally Tisdale living with 2 daughters, 1901.
There was a Mary Ellis died 1907, born 1845, died in the Workhouse, it may have been in the infirmary.
When Mary checks, hopefully we will find out who she is.
The above is the very reason you can't find a death for a Mary Elizabeth Tisdale, the name ceased to exist after she married James Henry Ellis.
Looking at years post 1901 and then worked forward with birth date 1845 +-/ 2 years and place Liverpool, also place West Derby, the only adult was admitted in February 1901 and died later the same month. Other Mary Ellises were children and admitted with siblings, also died.
Also thought I'd try Margaret in case she used to switch between names, but the only one was born there.
Number 1101 Date of Entry and Admission 7th November 1907 Ellis Mary aged 65, From Whence Admitted 59 Rose Place, Religion CE, Name of Informant Self, Name and Address of nearest relative Mrs Ellis same, Location of Pauper 9, Discharged or Died 10th November 1907, From what Ward Discharged 9, Remarks Died.
Sorry unless you can connect Rose Place there would be no definitive answer.
Jane Tisdale 22 CofE, S Factory Hand, Admitted by Med Supt (Nurse M.J. King) Parish from which sent Everton, Disease Labour, Admitted 13 December 1906, Discharged 7 January 1907, Ward A3, 12 Shakespeare Street, Everton, Address of Friends Mother Mary Elizth Ellis S/A
William Tisdale CofE, son of Jane, a S Factory Hand, (nurse M.J. King) Admitted 13 December 1906 with Mother, Discharged 7 January 1907, Ward A3, Born in A3 Ward at 4.20 pm, Address of Friends Grandmother Mary Elizth Ellis S/A 12 Shakespeare Street, Everton.
This second one is buried in Walton, address 22 Gondover Avenue, Walton on 16th August Grave No 33AD which I believe is a private grave.
You can check familysearch.org for West Derby Burial Register for 1912, for December quarter work backwards from Page 655, I'll leave that to you since it's very popular and you can search the quarter at your leisure. https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/405467?availability=Family%…
Sorry the Anfield ones aren't online. If you find you can't access the familysearch.org film for West Derby then you aren't logged in, and if you don't have an account with them, then you need to get one, it's free.
Name:Mary E EllisAge:69Record Type:BurialBirth Date:abt 1846Death Date:abt 1915Burial Date:23 Apr 1915Burial Place:Liverpool, Lancashire, EnglandCemetery Section:Church of England
Her full name, Mary Elizabeth Ellis, GRO.
Burial address, 6 Phoebe Ann Street, this address is close to West Derby Workhouse and close to Shakespeare St, her last known address, Workhouse records.
I can't say thank you enough at the length of time and detail you have gone into. My wife can now understand the intricacies of her tree as quite a lot of what you've provided rings a bell. I'm going to write/print it all out for her to look at and I'm sure that will take her a while! I suspect that I'll be seconded as her scribe but with my skill she'll be unlucky.
Because I don't log in every day, (I sometimes log in only to be told Access denied.)I am often late in my thanks, please don't be offended.
I hope you aren't being denied access now we are using this new forum. Please let me know if so since we have spent a lot of time putting this in place to resolve that matter.
I'm trying to trace anything I can about my maternal grandmother Annie Lindon nee Toomey.
Born Waterford circa 1880. Married Alfred Valentine Lindon 1904 in Liverpool. Father Michael and mother Margaret Hourihan. They had four children May,, Frances, Alfred and William. Died in Liverpool in 1937.
Apart from some census details from 1911 I know nothing about her between birth and marriage so if anybody can turn up any news I'd be grateful.
My GGGGrandmother, Hannah Smith died on August 19th 1842 at her home in Hampton Lucy.
The informant was the Registrar, Mr Richard Pitt, and the certificate under Cause of Death states "Died in Child Bed". Quite a few points puzzle me and I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on these questions-
a. Why was the Registrar the Informant and not a family member?
b. Does "Died in Child Bed" mean she died in child birth?
c. I cannot find a birth/baptism or death record for any corresponding child around that time - what might have happened to the child? See my next question for an idea on this.
d. In the 1851 Hampton Lucy census, the widowed husband, John, has re-married and there is a child in the family, Anne, of the right age to have been the child born at the time of Hannah's death. Did she survice the mother?
In the early years of the registration system, registering births was not compulsory for the parents. Registrars on the other hand were charged by statute with finding out and recording these events. I suspect that is what happened here. Litereally, gossip reached the ears of the registrar, perhaps from a midwife who attended the mother, that Mrs Smith had died in childbirth and he recorded it thus in his own name.
I can't be certain, but I think your interpretation of what the words 'died in child bed' mean is the correct one. It may be that the live birth of the child was not recorded for the simple reason that the Registrar didn't have that information at the time. When you say you can't find a baptism, how sure are you that the parish register for Hampton Lucy at the relevant time has been transcribed? As far as I am aware there are still many which have yet to be made available online, and you may need to check the physical register where ever it is currently being archived, to be sure about the baptism. Quickly checking FreeReg, for example, shows that no baptisms or marriages for Hampton Lucy have so far been transcribed, although burials for the relevant period have been. No sign of Hannah's burial in 1842 though.
To give some of my thoughts in the order of your questions.
a. Up until the 1870's it was the Registrar's duty to register births and was paid by the entry, I'm assuming that it may also have been his responsibility to register the death if he was called to it.
b. Yes she would have died in childbirth.
c. Have you also checked "female" Smith for a birth? If the Registrar registered the birth at the same time as the death the child may not have been given a name, look at the bottom of the list and see.
You could try your luck in contacting the local Register Office and ask whether a child was registered by Mr Pitt on the exact date of 19th August, 1842, you will need to give at lest the surname for them to check. Pity about not being able to find a baptism.
Are there any burials available to check? You may find an entry for a child at the same time as the mother, however it's possible that Anne is the child. Have you checked for the marriage date and would it be possible for it to have taken place before Anne's birth?
Andy's informative reply crossed mine but put a thought into mind, contact the Warwickshire Family History Society and although they may not know the answer they may be able to direct you to somebody who does know, perhaps either the appropriate Record Office or even a Facebook Group for the local area.
Hampton Lucy may be a small district within the main registration district, check FreeBMD to see which it comes under. However, if you look at WestmidlandsBMD there are three unnamed children in 1842, two of them girls. http://www.westmidlandsbmd.org.uk/birthsearch.php
Another thought is that if a child didn't take a breath it would be classed as Stillborn, these registers aren't made public but require to be looked up by a close family member, however I don't believe the Stillbirth Register existed at that date.
Many thanks for your suggestions. Re Mary's question about the husban's second marriage, John remarried 5 years after his first wife died which is why I suspected that 9 year old Anne had survived.
I cannot find Hannah's maiden name. I have looked for both birth and marriage certificates and checked as much detail of her childrens' births/baptisms as I can find to see if her maiden name is recorded.
There isn't another birth, Maycock/Siddle after 1840 and there wouldn't be for the other children born prior to registration anyway, which bodes well for Siddle being the correct maiden name. Only the birth cert will prove it either way.
There doesn't appear to be a marriage between Maycock and Siddle, perhaps they never married or Hannah was a widow, though I can't find anything for that, that fits.
I've not used the site for a few years nd am somewhat out of touch. I'm trying to find out aboutJames who was born in Manchester in 1854 and later married Jane later living in 91 Street, Liverpool. Thanks in anticipation. Keltis
Just moved your query over to this board Keltis. Are you able to be more specific what you are interested in finding out about, and do you know when he died?
This is my first time writing here, I have recently join the Southport branch after becoming more and more interested in researching my family tree over the last couple of years.
I have 2 queries really, would be grateful if anyone can help with either.
Firstly I am looking for an old photograph of the Crawford Inn pub which was located in Crawford Village. Unfortunately it is no longer there and has been converted into houses now. At some point it became the Crawford Arms and I already have photos from that era. What I am really looking for is an old B&W photo from when it was the Crawford Inn. It was run by 2 generations of my family from 1899 onwards. I would be really grateful if anyone would have any ideas where I might find one. I have tried lots of places already but no luck so far...
Secondly as you can see my name is Southworth and I am researching my family tree. I would love to chat to anyone else who has Southworths in their family especially if they have a link to Samlesbury Hall. I have hit a brick wall on that line and have not been able to link back to Samlesbury Hall yet. Although I am pretty sure there is a link somewhere.
Many thanks for reading and thank you for any information you are able to offer.
The Crawford you mention, is this in the Skelmersdale area? I will ask one of our members from there if they can be of any help.
For photographs I often suggest that Facebook Groups are very good, there are people who hold copies of photographs and are willing to share them, there is a group for the Skelmersdale Heritage Society https://www.facebook.com/skemheritage I hope they might have some suggestions.
Samlesbury Hall is a bit north of our area, nearer Preston, and we have friends who may be able to help in the Lancashire Family History and Heraldry Society https://www.lfhhs.org.uk/
Unfortunately, as you know, we are unable to get together this year but having met at various events in previous years I know they will try their best to be helpful.
Yes Crawford village is now classed as near Skelmerdale. My family moved there from Rainford. Mostly of my family are from Rainford. Rainford Heritage Society have been very helpful but unfortunately nobody seems to have a photo of the Crawford Inn. So I thought it was worth asking here as well. I have asked in lots of places already but not the Skem Heritage Society so I will give that a go, Thank you.
A few comments from people who live nearer Crawford Village.
You need to get in touch with the library there. The Archivists in these places usually know things. Also look on Facebook. They may have their own Community site.
These suggestions are more or less what I've suggested above, although Skelmersdale Library may have an archive department with photographs, if you email them they will probably advise.
I have also been sent two photographs although I think they are more or less what you already have and not what you are looking for.
there’s another FB site Memories of Skem. That has loads of pics, before new town, when they first started developing and up to date. It’s a big trawl, there hundreds of pics and sadly I don’t think FB has an image search facility. There is probably one somewhere. Crawford is neither here not there but often referred to as UpHolland rather than Skelmersdale. It is frustrating when you know that probably a pic somewhere.
Thank you so much for trying to find a photo, thats really kind of you. I said exactly the same thing to my Dad a couple of days ago. No area really takes responsibility for Crawford, every town thinks it belongs to somone else haha! It was always addressed as Crawford Village, Upholland though.
I have already contacted the Crawford Village facebook but I didn't get a reply. I will try the library that is a good idea thank you.
Thank you for the photos but yes these are the ones I have seen already. Ideally I was looking for a much older photograph.
I did look through a few hundred photos on a different Skem facebook page a couple of days ago but I didn't find anything. I have just requested to join the group Memories of Skem so I will let you know if I find anything there.
Yes as you say it is frustrating when you know that there is probably a picture somewhere, maybe tucked away in someones loft. Anyway I will keep searching and I will let you know if I find anything.
Rainford Heritage Society have also been very helpful and although they don't have a photos they are also asking around local people.
It was my 2nd great grandfather, Richard Winstanley who was the licensee in 1899 followed by my great grandmother, Esther Winstanley when he passed away. When she was widowed my dad was just a little boy living in Crawford, but they had to have a male on the premises of the pub. So my dad used to go and sleep upstairs over the pub when he was 8/9 just so there was a male on the premises.
Once again thank you very much for taking the time to ask around for me, I will let you know if I find anything.
Thank you for responding Heidi, I will pass on your thanks to the two members of the Skelmersdale Group who replied and in fact both of them offered to go along and take a current photograph of the Inn, which would have been great if you had lived at a distance, however I have discouraged them from doing this since you already have them and I wouldn't want them to go out in these strange times.
Don't just look on the Facebook Group, but ask as well since as an example of Liverpool people have their own collection of photographs and they are usually very willing to check and share if they have something.
I can only say good luck and sorry I haven't had more success for you.
No please tell them there is no need to go and take a picture now. The pub is no longer there and has been converted into houses. I did go back to Crawford a couple of years ago and have a picture of the houses. That is very kind of them though so please tell them thank you.
I think I might be on to something on facebook though.
So I joined the Memories of Skem facebook group and like you said there are so many photographs it will take ages to go through them all. Anyway I just searched the group for the word Crawford to see what came up and someone had commented that there is another group on facebook called "Old Crawford Cronies" so I joined that group and low and behold there are some old photos of the pub!!!!!!
Now this picture is probably even older than I was really looking for and not the best quality but at least I have something. This shows that there was a bakery within the pub which my dad doesn't remember, but my 2nd greatgrandfather was the landlord from 1899 so maybe it was from his time.
Anyway I am really happy to have a photo and I have have contact on facebook with some old Crawford people so we can share other photos now.
Thank you very much for pointing me in the right direction, I really appreciate it.
I'm so pleased you have finally found some, it's a pity people photograph a photo instead of scanning it, I wonder if you would be able to speak directly to whoever posted it and asked if there was any chance of this, it would get you a lot clearer picture.
I have written to the lady who posted the pictures. To be honest she posted them years ago so I don't know if I will get a reply. I think she was the landlady more recently maybe even until it was sold and make into houses. She wrote that someone gave her that photo. Anyway at least I have something and I am in the group now so I can ask other local people, maybe someone will have a better one.
Thanks once again for your help.
Now we know that Old Crawford Cronies is the place to go for photos of Crawford Village
No. 3944, School Register Number 1417, Date of Entry and Admission 19 July 1878, Name Surname and First name Stanfield (U.M.C.) John, Age 3, Father Destd . Mother D? From Whence Admitted Workhouse, Religion Protestant, Name of Informant Governor Workhouse, Discharged or Died 31 Dec 1879, Remarks Unknown Boarded Out.
There are a few other admittances which may or may not be the same child, between Kirkdale Industrial School and Mill Road and apparently given for adoption but it may not have worked since he came back, but the age is a little more out of kilter, but could actually be the above boy, who may be a year or so out as your child.
If he was taken into the Workhouse system it could explain why you have no details about his father.
I'm thinking this child has been in and out of the system, a later entry for April 1885, discharged 9 October 1885, discharged to School, references in the comments "See 19 July 1878 - 3944 Kirkdale" so definitely the same as seven years earlier.
If you think this has any merit I would suggest that you take out a two week free trial of Findmypast and delve more deeply into these records.
BUT it could also be confused with a young John Stanfield who died in 1885 with a similar birthdate.
Thank you so much for such a thorough response. We can confirm that John b.1873 is right. We believe that he was picked up by the Bell Man in or around Kirkdale when he was about 3/4 years old and was in and out of the Workhouse/Industrial School until he was about 11 years old. We think that he was then sent up to Blackburn to work at Harwood Colliery.
What we are struggling with, is where his mother (Mary Rigby) and father (John Stanfield) were before or after he was born. One issue that we have, is that anecdotally from and old aunt, young John was abandoned in Kirkdale by John/Mary, who set sail for America, leaving him behind.
We are looking at Births/Census/Marriage/Passenger Lists for both John and Mary, to try and find them. We have both Find My Past and Ancestry and have been searching for these two, for many years. No luck yet!
I seem to have been on the right lines with young John, to find a parent often it's useful to follow what happened to the children so as to look all round a situation and not just search for an individual in isolation, but we didn't know about the suspected abandonment, however the entry against the father "Destd" seems to concur that he was deserted.
I am trying to find the GRO birth certifcate for Mary Ann Nichol (or any other record that would give me her mother's maiden name).
Her parents were Thomas and Margaret Nichol and according to the censuses of 1851-1871 and her burial record she seems to have been born in Liverpool1842/43. I've found a non-conformist baptism record on FamilySearch for a Mary Ann Christiana Nichols that looks a possibility but only gives the parents as Thos and Margt Nichols but there does not seem to be a corresponding GRO record. This non-conformist record gives the child's birth as 2 Dec 1841 and the baptism took place on 26 Dec.
The census records also show that Mary Ann had a sister called Harriet, also born in Liverpool in about 1841, but again I cannot find any record that gives me the nother's maiden name.
Another sister, Margaret, seems to have been born in Ireland in about 1839 - her mother is also recorded on the censuses as being from Ireland while Thomas is said to be from Dundee (1871 census).
I have looked for a possible marriage of Thomas and Margaret as this would obviously give me the mother's maiden name and I found one between a Thomas Nichol (who could well have been Scottish) to a Margaret Foy (could be an Irish name) in Liverpool in 1838 and these could well be the girls' parents. However, I think there may be a link between Thomas Nichol and another branch of my family but the father's name on the marriage certificate does not support this hence my desire for a further check before I abandon my theory completely!
I'm quite intrigued that there does not seem to be a GRO certificate for either Mary Ann or Harriet.
A frustrating one this as there seems that there would be several records for me to look at post-1837 to identify the maiden name of the mother and yet none of them seem yo offer the solution!
Yes, Bert, I hadn't taken on-board that the absence of Foy as a mother's name might be a positive as far as my theory is concerned (to fill you in: Mary Ann married William Laurenson Gordon in 1860 and I think their grandfathers may have been cousins but not if Thomas Nichol's father is Alexander as is the case in the Nichol/Foy marriage!)
Any ideas why neither Harriet noe Mary Ann appear to have GRO certificates?
Another anomoly is that I not only found a non-conformist baptism record for a Mary Ann Christiana Nicols, it would seem the baptism also took place at at St Anthony's on exactly the same day! Any explanations?
I've even considered the possibility that Thomas and Margaret were married after the girls were born but before the 1851 census where they appear as man and wife but I cannot see a suitable marriage and I might have also expected to find birth records for a Harriet and a Mary Ann with the same surname but have again drawn a blank at least as far as Liverpool is concerned.
Following up Bert's idea re: what happened to Margaret Foy - I can't find her and Thomas on the 1841 census and no obvious death records so I'm not sure where that leaves me.
Re: Andy's Ashton birth record - I think the parents were John and Ann which kind of rules it out but I did notice a Harriet Nicholl born 1840 in Halifax and a couple of Mary Ann Nicholls born 1842/43 in Halifax - I'll check out the sunames but seems a bit of a longshot.
At the period of time the girls were born, it wasn't absolutely compulsory to register as such, there were no penalties for not doing so.
It was up to the registrar to find out the new babies and register them, at a cost. Some parents avoided registration purely for financial reasons and considered baptism and its cost more important.
It may well be good thing you can't find Thomas Nichol/Margaret Foy, you may have already found them.
Name:Mary Ann Christiana NicholsGender:FemaleBirth Date:2 Dec 1841Baptism Date:26 Dec 1841Baptism Place:St. Anthony's, Liverpool, Lancashire, EnglandFather:Thos NicholsMother:MargtFHL Film Number:396380Reference ID:yr 1841-1842
Well done, Bert - where did you find the Irish record? That definitely seems the correct one for Mary Ann's sister - the date corresponds perfectly with the census records. How annoying though that the record does not show the mother's maiden name!
Now, if only I could find a marriage in Ireland between Thomas and Margaret to give me that elusive maiden name......! Otherwise I have to accept that Thomas and Margaret Foy may have got married in Liverpool then returned to the wife's home for the birth of her first child before coming back and settling in Liverpool.
I had seen the St Anthony's baptism record before but how does this marry with the non-conformist record for the same dates - not as though the family could have had a quick baptism because the child was ill and then a more 'family affair' when things more more settled. Seems as though they must literally have gone from one ceremony to the other! Any ideas?
I've seen the none conformist record on Family Search, page 1 of those records has the title, St Anthony's. Unless there was 2 St Anthony's at that time I don't know, as far as I know St Anthony's was Catholic. The baptism was performed by a Minister, I'm not aware the catholic church would call a priest, Minister. I guess the records have been mixed up and Ancestry have transcribed what they see.
Great stuff, Bert. I've just been on the Irish site and I can't see any marriage between a Thomas Nichol/s etc and a Margaret but there were baptisms for 2 Margarets (1814 and 1820), either of whom could be the Margaret Nichol on the censuses. I think you are right - I've found Thomas's parents, even though it was not the father I was hoping for! Next step, I think I'll go back to the Scottish records and see if I can make a link between the Gordon and Nichol family in another way - I just feel there is something in this one and I don't want to give up on it just yet. If I find anything, I will let you know.
The RC baptism record for Mary Ann makes sense, given the 1838 one you found. I may just look through other pages and see if there is anything that could appertain to Harriet Nichol that may have been transcribed incorrectly.
Thanks too, Bert, for the tip about it not being a legal requirement to report births in the 1840s - do you know when it did become compulsory and did the same leeway apply to deaths?
I thought I'd look into the non-conformist record again and at the minister who carried out the baptism, Patrick Phelan and another on the same page, Ambrose Lennon. Both are recorded at 78 Great Homer St, 1841, Catholic Clergymen. So, no mistake made, the record is St Anthony's Catholic Church, Liverpool.
I noticed that as part of the title of a database on Findmypast, put it down to probable American transcribers not knowing what they were talking about.
Thanks everyone for your inputs - as I usually do when I turn to this site, I have moved forward with my research and picked up some new skills/information on the way.
No sign of Harriet in the St Anthony registers but I've found a possible death for her in 1863 which I'll follow-up.
I thought I had found the baptism of a Margaret Foy in Dublin that would have been ok date-wise but the father wasn't William Foy as mentioned on the Liverpool marriage. However, someone I am liasing with in Australia (great hobby this!) has found an 1807 birth of a Thomas Nicol, father Alexander, in Menmuir, not that far away from Dundee so that could prove interesting.
One last thing you could help me with with this family: I have the 1873 Cemetery Register for Mary Ann Hill (having married a Gordon, she was then widowed and remarried to Frederick Hill) indicating she died in 'the workhouse, Mill Road'. I know this could refer to the hospital rather than the workhouse but there is another entry for her in the Index to Admission and Discharge Book of the Liverpool Workhouse Register (FindMyPast) - gives her address as Howe Street and says her husband was at that address. Anything here to indicate whether she was in the hospital of workhouse?
Also, it was her parents rather than the husband who are named on the Cemetery Register - should I read anything into this?
I looked before and after the Mary Ann entry in the church record referred to in post 7 by Bert. I was looking for something that might have been mis-transcribed and that could refer to Harriet but had no luck.
Nor can I find Harriet in the Cemetery Registers but I thought this GRO record might be worth a punt: 1863 Jul-Sept Liverpool 8b 171. A ssslight niggle is that it is for 'Nichols' rather than 'Nicoll'.
However, on the 1861 census there is a baby of 10 months living with Thomas, Margaret and Harriet and he is described as being Thomas and Margaret's grandson - perhaps Harriet's illegitimate son? On the 1871 census the child is described as being T and M's son and I wondered if this might have been due to H's death. That's the method in my madness!
The 1863 death was 20 years older than your Harriet,
Perhaps you need to look further afield, no way of knowing who this one is,
Name:Harriet NicholsArrival Date:7 Oct 1863Birth Date:abt 1842Age:21Gender:FemaleEthnicity/ Nationality:EnglishPlace of Origin:EnglandPort of Departure:Liverpool, EnglandDestination:USAPort of Arrival:New York, New York, USAShip Name:Adelaide
Thanks, Bert - hopefully I would have picked this up on the GRO site before I splashed the cash!
At the end of the day, what I am really trying to do is confirm that the birth I have for Thomas Nicoll in 1804 in Dundee is the correct one and this would not be the case if the Nicoll/Foy marriage certificate was the correct one for Mary Ann's and Harriet's parents (hence the desire to find their mother's maiden name). The father of the Thomas Nicoll on that certificate is a joiner called Alexander and this does not match up with any births for a Thomas in the vicinity of Dundee. Interestingly, I did find a marriage in Dundee for a Alexander who was a cotton spinner and apparently a 'joiner' can also refer to a spinner who works alongside another spinner to oversee more than one spinning mule but there does not appear to be any birth for a Thomas linked with this Alexander.
Wondering if I should keep it simple and look for a suitble marriage between a Thomas and Margaret in Ireland or a Margaret Somebody born in Ireland in 1818 as per the census details - the 1939 Dublin birth of Margaret Nicoll found by Bert sounds a good starting point.
One final question if I may before I get embroiled in the Irish records.
As well as the entry in the Cemetery Register, I have an 1873 record for Mary Ann (now Hill, having remarried) from the Liverpool Workhouse Registers. It is in the Index to Admission and Discaharge Book and shows she was admitted on 1st Jan before dying 5 days later.
Am I correct in thinking she was admitted to the hospital due to illness rather than to the workhouse because she had fallen on hard times?
I don't think we could say with 100% certainty, but it would be a reasonable supposition. If you were to order the death certificate it would give you the cause of death and on occasions it would say how many days the person had had the illness.
I know from the Cemetery Register (what a boon to have them online) that she died of inflammation and the 'workhouse, Mill Road' address is recorded. The Workhouse Record tells me she had come from Howe Street and that her husband still lived there.
I'm trying to tidy up yet another loose end, this time concerning Jeremiah O'Sullivan, born in Ireland around 1825/6. He was the father of Catherine O'Sullivan (sometimes Sullivan or O’Sullavan) born 29 Dec 1864 and baptised into the Catholic faith on 1 Jan 1865 at Our Lady of Reconcilliation de la Salette, Liverpool. She later married my great uncle John Johnstone on 20 June 1897 (as Catherine Cummins – another story).
However that is by way of background. I have a few details about Jeremiah, some of which don't quite match up and I’m hoping that fresh eyes will spot something I’ve missed.. The only census I can find him in is 1871, at 233 Vauxhall Rd, with wife Ann, 4 children including Catherine and a visitor from Ireland. Jeremiah and Ann Woodhouse married in the fourth quarter of 1858 in Liverpool. I’ve not found the family in the 1861 Census. At the time of the 1881 Census son Jeremiah (b 1861) and daughter Mary Ann aka Margery (b 1863) are recorded as having been born in Birkenhead however the family don’t show up there in the 1861 census. There is an O’Sullivan family living at 6 Harbord St, West Derby in 1861, with a Jerome O’Sullivan as head of the family born 1825 in Ireland but none of the rest of the details of family really fit so I have discounted them.
I think that Jeremiah died 11 Dec 1871 aged 46 (so year of birth 1825) at 67 Portland Street (which was just off Vauxhall Road, but now demolished). His occupation is shown as Club Collector, whereas at the time of the census earlier that year he was shown as a labourer in an iron works. The death was reported by a Frances Whalan. Nothing useful comes up in the 1871 census for Francis/Frances Whalan/Whelan. There’s nothing else on the death certificate to confirm his connection with the Jeremiah O’Sullivan who is Catherine’s father. However the geography seems to support the presumption that he is. His wife Ann then goes on to marry Patrick Scollins in the third quarter of 1873 in Birkenhead but by the time of the 1881 census she can be found in the Scollans (sic) household at 117 Hornby Street Liverpool (which used to lie at the end of the old Portland Street). The 3 addresses, Vauxhall Rd, Portland St and Hornby St are within half a mile of each other, and when Catherine (as Kate) married Patrick Cummins in 1883, her address was Limekiln Lane which ajoined Hornby St and Portland St at that time. Also the church of Our Lady of Reconcilliation where Catherine was baptised is just two streets away.
As for Jeremiah’s actual occupation, take your pick between labourer in iron works (1871 Census), club collector (death cert), time keeper deceased (Catherine’s first marriage), and schoolmaster deceased (Catherine’s second marriage).
Any supplementary information on the O’Sullivan family from directories or other sources would be much appreciated. Just to prevent any wild goose chases, I have discounted a Jeremiah Sullivan aged 15 tailor’s apprentice in the household of Hugh Evans in Lambert St in the 1841 census. This Jeremiah goes on to marry Agnes Youd on 11 Apr 1853 in a CofE church.
Frances Whelan, Godmother to Elizabeth O'sullivan, born 6 December, 1871.
Name:Elizabeth O'SullivanAge:0Birth Date:6 Dec 1871Baptism Date:10 Dec 1871Baptism Place:Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette, Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Jeremiah O'sullivan, Anna Woodhouse.
Excellent. Thanks Bert as ever for sleuthing out those details. No wonder Frances got the job of reporting Jeremiah's death as it occurred the day after Elizabeth's birth. His death cert says cause of death was dropsy (which I didn't know was fatal) so I wonder if he was present at the baptism. It's a shame that Catholic baptisms don't give the address of the parents, but we can't have everything. Now I need to find out why I didn't find those 1861 census details on FMP. Incidentally Elizabeth O'Sullivan went on to be a witness at Catherine's second marriage on 15 May 1897.
PS Very tactful of you not to point out that I can't spell either! Reconciliation.
I'm going to have to join Ancestry! Tried all the permutations of the Sullivan family for the 1861 census in FMP and got nothing. FreeCen doesn't have anything either.
I've found the baptism for John Sullivan. Born 31 Jul 1857, bapt St Anthony Liverpool 16 Aug 1857, father Geradi Sullivan, mother Anna Woodhouse. A possible death for John: Q4 1866 age 9 Birkenhead 8A 308. Interestingly Jeremiah and Ann didn't marry until the end of 1858.
Also with Elizabeth's baptism, is it just coincidence that her Godfather is Patrick Collins, and after Jeremiah's death Anna marries a Patrick Scollins?
I suspect the family moved to Waterloo Place sometime between 1859 and 1861, going by the address on the below baptism.
Some years ago I was involved in a study to find if Birkenhead had an Irish Quarter, we concluded if in fact it did, Waterloo Place and surrounding roads/streets was it, at around the time Jeremiah and family lived there.
Thanks, Bert. Just what I need, 2 more Sullivans I didn't know about! I wonder who Edward is.
Any idea where Litchfield St is? There doesn't appear to be a street of that name in Birkenhead (or Liverpool) today.
Going back to the 1861 census, since I can't find it, what was Jeremiah's occupation? And anything more precise about his or Ann's place of birth within Ireland?
Thanks John, I appreciate your help. These are slippery customers and we need as many eyes as possible to find them! Interesting that you spelled Frances with an 'e' and when Bert found them he quoted Francis with an 'i'. I think this might be significant as later on we have a Franc(e/i)s Whelan reporting the death of Jeremiah and being Godmother to Elizabeth O'Sullivan.
John and Bert. Thanks for those details. I've just bitten the bullet and joined Ancestry and so I have now seen the 1861 census entry. I will certainly have to pursue the idea that Frances (O')Sullivan and Frances Whelan may be the same person. And Bert I think the burial for John is a good match, no idea at this stage about David. Given that the family seemed to be good Catholics, there should be a baptism for him somewhere.
Ah yes, If I had read it correctly I would have known! Of course Titchfield Street crosses Portland street, so they definitely remained in the same area despite also staying in Birkenhead.
Thanks, Mary, for your contributions. Because the forum does not show notifications of postings further up the thread, like replies to individual items, I have only just noticed a couple of them.
I agree. I have ordered a copy of his birth cert. That should confirm the address. Also going back to your suggestion that John and David were brothers, I think the fact that their death registrations had sequential numbers in the register, 307 and 308, pretty much confirms that. Again, I have ordered copies of the death certs anyway. I will be unsurprised to find they died of the same cause.
Thanks Bert. It doesn't look much like that today. Although Waterloo Pl and St Mary's Gate are technically still on the map, they are both industrial estates now.
No sign of Thomas and Frances Browne in the 1871 census, either together or individually. No Browne children with mmn O'Sulivan/Sullivan registered in England and Wales 1868 - 1878
Yes Bert, I had noticed, which was why I was rather expecting a birth soon after. Perhaps they skipped off across the Irish Sea straight after the wedding. I've ordered the marriage cert in case it holds any extra information.
A couple of other things pop up from the information we have so far. For instance why did Jeremiah and Anna wait until they had had 2 children before marrying? I'm not quite sure of the Catholic Church's attitude at that time to such things but I would guess a few Hail Marys were said. Was there an impediment perhaps? Secondly Anna seems to have a child fairly regularly every 12 - 18 months between 1855 and 1871 (like a good Cathiolic is supposed to) but with a gap between 29 Dec 1864 (birth of Catherine No2) and birth of Ann 16 Feb 1869. Was there another child in there we haven't discovered yet?
Incidentally, re your post 19, there is another couple named Sullivan, Matthew and Mary (or possibly Maria) where the wife's maiden name is also Sullivan, who are producing children around this time. However they are in Liverpool (baptisms at Our Lady of Reconciliation), not Birkenhead so I'm pretty sure David is one of the family we are looking at.
why did Jeremiah and Anna wait until they had had 2 children before marrying?
Anna seems to have a child fairly regularly every 12 - 18 months between 1855 and 1871 (like a good Cathiolic is supposed to) but with a gap between 29 Dec 1864 (birth of Catherine No2) and birth of Ann 16 Feb 1869. Was there another child in there we haven't discovered yet?
A marriage a bit later isn't uncommon, are you sure they are both original RC, and just in case one wasn't have you checked for an adult baptism? If they were away from parents and family the cost of the marriage might also have been taken into account and they used their money for more urgent matters - food?
If no child shows up in the indexes I wouldn't stress too much, there may have been a still birth, these not being registered you may never discover that truth.
I assume that Henry H Moylan snr and Elizabeth Moylan are relatives (maybe brother & sister-in-law to Daniel) even though they are shown as boarders. Little doubt that we have the correct Franc(i/e)s.
Yet again Bert, I think your instinct is 100% correct. I wonder why the need for a sham marriage? I think the connection with Elizabeth Sullivan is interesting, but in 1892 Elizabeth daughter of Jeremiah and Ann would only have been 21 so ineligible to vote. Elizabeth was married to James Seagrove (shedsman in tannery) and living at 76 St Paul's Rd Birkenhead in 1901, with her widowed mother Anna Scollins living with them. James and Elizabeth married Q3 1900 in Birkenhead. James was born 16 April 1870 in Dublin. By 1891 he was living with his Irish family at 1 Clare St Tranmere. His father was a tanner. At the 1911 census James and Elizabeth are at 82 Olney St Walton with 6 children. He spells the surname Segrave at that point and that's how it appears from then on. There's a family tree on Ancestry which shows the family. James died in 1937 in Bootle, and Elizabeth died in Q3 1939, apparently before the date of the 1939 Register. The Segrave children are shown at 16 St Catherine's Rd Bootle, all single, so presumably this was the family home.
Pure speculation about the marriage to Thomas Browne, as I said, were the parents aware of it. If Thomas Browne was a lot older, did he regret marrying a young child who perhaps didn't live up to his expectation.
If she was widowed she would have no problem declaring so for her second marriage, she was hiding something in my view.
I don't know who Elizabeth of Upper Beau Street is, though I didn't expect her to be the sister, thinking more towards Aunt.
Incidentally, on the subject of Frances O'Sullivan/Moylan, I'm not even sure that Jeremiah was her biological father. She and mother Anna came from Dublin. There's no obvious record of her birth c. 1855, or of Anna's for that matter. I wonder where Jeremiah (from Co. Kerry afterall) and Anna first met, in Ireland or Liverpool? Mass exodus from Ireland due to the famine was around 1845 -1855.
Need some advice on Catholic confirmations here. The image below shows confirmations at Holy Cross Church on 31 March 1876. Vauxhall Rd was within the parish of Holy Cross. The ages for Catherine O'Sulivan and Mary Ann O'Sullivan fit. The last name is probably Mary Ann Scollins, daughter of Patrick and Marguerite Scollins, and again the age fits. Anna O'Sullivan married Patrick Q3 1873 after Marguerite's death Q3 1872. Marguerite's maiden name was Brennan, not O'Keefe. So my question is, how significant are the ditto marks in the fourth column, given that the name Marguerite O'Keefe lines up against Maria Anna Mc[whatever] and obviously wouldn't apply to the last three names. Could confirmation go ahead without the active participation of the mother, or is this just a bit laziness on the part of the priest? At the 1871 census Patrick and Marguerite were living at White Street which is some way to the south of Holy Cross, so I assume at this point (1876) the O'Sullivan and Scollins families were living together around the Portland Steet/Hornby St area.
Nomina Patrinorum, she is the sponsor of the girls.
"A Confirmation sponsor is preferably one of the baptismal sponsors. A sponsor should be at least 16 years of age and a confirmed Catholic who has received Eucharist and who leads a faith-filled life. Parents may not be sponsors. ":
Thanks for both those replies. That's the confirmation sorted, just need to find Mary Ann O'Sullivan's baptism now. And the Upper Beau St census is excellent. I hadn't got as far as the 1891 census for them.
Yes, I knew about her and the baptism. She died aged 5 (Q1 1874 Birkenhead 8a 329). I got a little excited about the Godparents at one point becasue Callaghan had popped up in another context, but nothing came of that.
Just a brief update. The two burials Bert found (post 13) for John and David Sullivan turn out to be the children of James and Margaret Sullivan (maiden name Sullivan) living at 14 St Mary's Gate. They died of scarlet fever, David on the 30th October 1866 and John 3 days later. This means that we can rule out David (born 12 Jan 1864) altogether. That also answers the point made by MaryA (post 20) about David's baptism not being recorded at St Werburgh's. I still haven't been able to find a death for Jeremiah and Anna's child John who was born 31 Jan 1857 and was with the family at the time of the 1861 census though not in 1871. Unfortunately there are quite a few John Sullivans who died in that decade, so unless some other evidence comes to light, I don't intend to spend too much time on that issue.
One other small piece of information has also come in via the birth cetificates for Jeremiah and Anna's daughters, Ann born 16 Feb 1869 (with the family at 233 Vauxhall Rd as in the 1871 census), and Elizabeth born on 6 Dec 1871 when the family were at 67 Portland Street (as was previously known from Jeremiah's death cert). In both cases the births were registered by Anna O'Sullivan who made a mark rather than a signature.
Another update, but possibly one which raises more questions than it answers. I now have the marriage certs for Jeremiah and Anna, and Frances and Thomas Browne.
Jeremiah O'Sullivan and Anna Woodhouse married at the Liverpool register office on 6 November 1858. His age is recorded as 23 (but this is plainly wrong when compared to the ages in the censuses and at his death), he is a bachelor and a labourer. His father is given as John O'Sullivan MD. Anna's details are: age 25 (slightly out compared to censuses where the year of birth usually resolves to 1835), spinster and no occupation. Her father is given as John Woodhouse, btton maker. Jeremiah signs, but Anna marks her mark (this accords with the times when she has registered births and deaths of her children). If the MD for the occupation of Jeremiah's father stands for medical doctor as one might assume, it is unsurprising that Jeremiah is literate. The bride and groom are residing at Burlington St, Liverpool. Burlington Street runs parallel to Portland Street and leads off Vauxhall road. The witnesses are John and Hugh Donnelly.
Thomas Browne and Frances Sullivan married at St Anthony's on 18 Jan 1869 (as we knew from the entry in the church register in post 23). Thomas is shown as 26, a bachelor and his occupation is given as tailor of 23 Warburton St West Derby, and his father is Thomas Browne also a tailor. Frances Sullivan's age is given as 16 years, spinster and no occupation, living at 233 Vauxhall Rd. Her father is Jeremiah Sullivan, labourer. Both make their mark in the register. The witnesses are the same as in post 23.
Quite a few anomalies arise from these two documents. When, after Jeremiah's death, Anna remarries in August 1873 on the marriage certificate she gives her age as 37 (so year of birth 1835/6) but her father's occupation is now farrier which seems to be a considerable career change from button maker.
Obviously Frances's claimed age is a lie if the earlier census information giving a year of birth of 1855 is correct. Indeed given that the month of the marriage is January, she might well have been as young as 13 years of age. However the address and father's details confirm this is the correct person. We now have an age, a new address and a trade for Thomas, but none of this helps establish where he is in the censuses both before and after the marriage. Bert, are you able to shed any light on who might have been living at 23 Warburton St, West Derby around this time? Warburton St used to be off Hall Lane, where the Liverpool University Hospital now stands. Intringuingly while I was checking the 1881 Kelly's for Warburton St, Liverpool, I noticed a Jeremiah Sullivan provisions dealer at 26 Warburton St. We know from the 1881 census that 'our' Jeremiah, son of Jeremiah, was a carter living at Hornby St, so we can rule him out.
The next anomaly is that in Jan 1869 Frances cannot sign her name, yet if the marriage to Daniel Moylan in 1872 is the same person, she is able to sign the register in a fairly neat hand three years later.
Before going to look for responses to a couple of other points I just wanted to refer to
in Jan 1869 Frances cannot sign her name,
You say both bride and groom signed their names, there would often have been a stigma about the bride being able to read and write when the husband wasn't able to, so she may well have just not owned up to it.
Do you have details of his
Do you have details of his leaving the Army, possibly absconded and changed his name to avoid being found?
If he absconded he wouldn't
If he absconded he wouldn't have reached the rank of sergeant major, effectively most senior rank for soldiers at that time, equivalent to a Warrant Officer Class One today. He served for the full 22 years which was fairly standard for a career soldier.
Stewpot. If you can find his Chelsea Hospital Pension records this may provide some information, as they would have needed to know of any change of name if this occurred after he left the army.
Chelsea Pension
Chelsea Pension
Name:Sergeant Major Robert SherlockEnlistment Age:16Discharge Age:38Birth Date:abt 1796Birth Place:Carlow, CarlowEnlistment Year:1812Discharge Year:1834Regiment:29th Regt Of FootRegimental Number:125
Typically, Bert got there
Typically, Bert got there first!
seems he lost his left arm,
seems he lost his left arm, in a shooting accident, prior to him leaving the army.
Many thanks. I found his
Many thanks. I found his Examination of Invalid Soldiers record and some other service records but no indication of why he changed his name. Where is the real Sherlock when you need him?