I'm trying to tidy up yet another loose end, this time concerning Jeremiah O'Sullivan, born in Ireland around 1825/6. He was the father of Catherine O'Sullivan (sometimes Sullivan or O’Sullavan) born 29 Dec 1864 and baptised into the Catholic faith on 1 Jan 1865 at Our Lady of Reconcilliation de la Salette, Liverpool. She later married my great uncle John Johnstone on 20 June 1897 (as Catherine Cummins – another story).
However that is by way of background. I have a few details about Jeremiah, some of which don't quite match up and I’m hoping that fresh eyes will spot something I’ve missed.. The only census I can find him in is 1871, at 233 Vauxhall Rd, with wife Ann, 4 children including Catherine and a visitor from Ireland. Jeremiah and Ann Woodhouse married in the fourth quarter of 1858 in Liverpool. I’ve not found the family in the 1861 Census. At the time of the 1881 Census son Jeremiah (b 1861) and daughter Mary Ann aka Margery (b 1863) are recorded as having been born in Birkenhead however the family don’t show up there in the 1861 census. There is an O’Sullivan family living at 6 Harbord St, West Derby in 1861, with a Jerome O’Sullivan as head of the family born 1825 in Ireland but none of the rest of the details of family really fit so I have discounted them.
I think that Jeremiah died 11 Dec 1871 aged 46 (so year of birth 1825) at 67 Portland Street (which was just off Vauxhall Road, but now demolished). His occupation is shown as Club Collector, whereas at the time of the census earlier that year he was shown as a labourer in an iron works. The death was reported by a Frances Whalan. Nothing useful comes up in the 1871 census for Francis/Frances Whalan/Whelan. There’s nothing else on the death certificate to confirm his connection with the Jeremiah O’Sullivan who is Catherine’s father. However the geography seems to support the presumption that he is. His wife Ann then goes on to marry Patrick Scollins in the third quarter of 1873 in Birkenhead but by the time of the 1881 census she can be found in the Scollans (sic) household at 117 Hornby Street Liverpool (which used to lie at the end of the old Portland Street). The 3 addresses, Vauxhall Rd, Portland St and Hornby St are within half a mile of each other, and when Catherine (as Kate) married Patrick Cummins in 1883, her address was Limekiln Lane which ajoined Hornby St and Portland St at that time. Also the church of Our Lady of Reconcilliation where Catherine was baptised is just two streets away.
As for Jeremiah’s actual occupation, take your pick between labourer in iron works (1871 Census), club collector (death cert), time keeper deceased (Catherine’s first marriage), and schoolmaster deceased (Catherine’s second marriage).
Any supplementary information on the O’Sullivan family from directories or other sources would be much appreciated. Just to prevent any wild goose chases, I have discounted a Jeremiah Sullivan aged 15 tailor’s apprentice in the household of Hugh Evans in Lambert St in the 1841 census. This Jeremiah goes on to marry Agnes Youd on 11 Apr 1853 in a CofE church.
1861, Waterloo Place,
1861, Waterloo Place, Birkenhead
Rg 9 P2640 F98 Page1
Jeremiah Sullivan33Ann Sullivan26Francis Sullivan6John Sullivan3Jeremiah Sullivan5/12
Frances Whelan, Godmother to
Frances Whelan, Godmother to Elizabeth O'sullivan, born 6 December, 1871.
Name:Elizabeth O'SullivanAge:0Birth Date:6 Dec 1871Baptism Date:10 Dec 1871Baptism Place:Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette, Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Jeremiah O'sullivan, Anna Woodhouse.
Excellent. Thanks Bert as
Excellent. Thanks Bert as ever for sleuthing out those details. No wonder Frances got the job of reporting Jeremiah's death as it occurred the day after Elizabeth's birth. His death cert says cause of death was dropsy (which I didn't know was fatal) so I wonder if he was present at the baptism. It's a shame that Catholic baptisms don't give the address of the parents, but we can't have everything. Now I need to find out why I didn't find those 1861 census details on FMP. Incidentally Elizabeth O'Sullivan went on to be a witness at Catherine's second marriage on 15 May 1897.
PS Very tactful of you not to point out that I can't spell either! Reconciliation.
I'm going to have to join
I'm going to have to join Ancestry! Tried all the permutations of the Sullivan family for the 1861 census in FMP and got nothing. FreeCen doesn't have anything either.
FMP have lost a complete page
FMP have lost a complete page, no image is there for Page 1.
I've found the baptism for
I've found the baptism for John Sullivan. Born 31 Jul 1857, bapt St Anthony Liverpool 16 Aug 1857, father Geradi Sullivan, mother Anna Woodhouse. A possible death for John: Q4 1866 age 9 Birkenhead 8A 308. Interestingly Jeremiah and Ann didn't marry until the end of 1858.
Also with Elizabeth's baptism, is it just coincidence that her Godfather is Patrick Collins, and after Jeremiah's death Anna marries a Patrick Scollins?
Andy,
Andy,
I suspect the family moved to Waterloo Place sometime between 1859 and 1861, going by the address on the below baptism.
Some years ago I was involved in a study to find if Birkenhead had an Irish Quarter, we concluded if in fact it did, Waterloo Place and surrounding roads/streets was it, at around the time Jeremiah and family lived there.
Thanks, Bert. Just what I
Thanks, Bert. Just what I need, 2 more Sullivans I didn't know about! I wonder who Edward is.
Any idea where Litchfield St is? There doesn't appear to be a street of that name in Birkenhead (or Liverpool) today.
Going back to the 1861 census, since I can't find it, what was Jeremiah's occupation? And anything more precise about his or Ann's place of birth within Ireland?
Andy, 1861 census on Ancestry
Andy, 1861 census on Ancestry has the family as Sullivan and living at 1 Waterloo Place Birkenhead. Jeremiah, Ann, Frances, John and Jeremiah junior.
Thanks John, I appreciate
Thanks John, I appreciate your help. These are slippery customers and we need as many eyes as possible to find them! Interesting that you spelled Frances with an 'e' and when Bert found them he quoted Francis with an 'i'. I think this might be significant as later on we have a Franc(e/i)s Whelan reporting the death of Jeremiah and being Godmother to Elizabeth O'Sullivan.
1861 gives Kerry for Jeremiah
1861 gives Kerry for Jeremiah and Dublin for Ann and Francis
https://imgur.com/ADLLBbw
Andy
Andy
There are 2 burials at Flaybrick cemetery, Birkenhead, November 3rd, 1866. John Sullivan, 9, David Sullivan, 2 years 9 months, St Mary's Gate.
Probaly brothers, something to look at.
Andy it is spelled Francis
Andy it is spelled Francis but refers to daughter, a common error in those days (and now, me being John Francis!) :-)
John and Bert. Thanks for
John and Bert. Thanks for those details. I've just bitten the bullet and joined Ancestry and so I have now seen the 1861 census entry. I will certainly have to pursue the idea that Frances (O')Sullivan and Frances Whelan may be the same person. And Bert I think the burial for John is a good match, no idea at this stage about David. Given that the family seemed to be good Catholics, there should be a baptism for him somewhere.
Jeremiah O'Sullivan age 46
Jeremiah O'Sullivan age 46 buried Ford Cemetery grave 326 on 14 Dec 1871, address Portland Street.
Titchfield St, Liverpool,
Titchfield St, Liverpool, shows in the 1853 Directory.
Ah yes, If I had read it
Ah yes, If I had read it correctly I would have known! Of course Titchfield Street crosses Portland street, so they definitely remained in the same area despite also staying in Birkenhead.
David Sullivan, 1864,
David Sullivan, 1864, Birkenhead, mmn Sullivan.
This could be a mistake recording mmn or a Sulivan married a Sullivan.
The nearest Catholic church to Waterloo Pl was St Werburgh's, I don't think the baptisms are online.
St Werburgh's, I don't think
They are actually, but unforunately not for David Sullivan, shame
Thanks, Mary, for your
Thanks, Mary, for your contributions. Because the forum does not show notifications of postings further up the thread, like replies to individual items, I have only just noticed a couple of them.
I agree. I have ordered a
I agree. I have ordered a copy of his birth cert. That should confirm the address. Also going back to your suggestion that John and David were brothers, I think the fact that their death registrations had sequential numbers in the register, 307 and 308, pretty much confirms that. Again, I have ordered copies of the death certs anyway. I will be unsurprised to find they died of the same cause.
I think this puts paid to my
I think this puts paid to my theory that Frances (O')Sullivan might have become Frances Whelan.
1876 map.
1876 map.
Thanks Bert. It doesn't look
Thanks Bert. It doesn't look much like that today. Although Waterloo Pl and St Mary's Gate are technically still on the map, they are both industrial estates now.
No sign of Thomas and Frances
No sign of Thomas and Frances Browne in the 1871 census, either together or individually. No Browne children with mmn O'Sulivan/Sullivan registered in England and Wales 1868 - 1878
Andy,
Andy,
AWOL the pair of them, have you realised Frances would only have been 14 if the 1861 census information is correct.
Yes Bert, I had noticed,
Yes Bert, I had noticed, which was why I was rather expecting a birth soon after. Perhaps they skipped off across the Irish Sea straight after the wedding. I've ordered the marriage cert in case it holds any extra information.
A couple of other things pop up from the information we have so far. For instance why did Jeremiah and Anna wait until they had had 2 children before marrying? I'm not quite sure of the Catholic Church's attitude at that time to such things but I would guess a few Hail Marys were said. Was there an impediment perhaps? Secondly Anna seems to have a child fairly regularly every 12 - 18 months between 1855 and 1871 (like a good Cathiolic is supposed to) but with a gap between 29 Dec 1864 (birth of Catherine No2) and birth of Ann 16 Feb 1869. Was there another child in there we haven't discovered yet?
Incidentally, re your post 19
Incidentally, re your post 19, there is another couple named Sullivan, Matthew and Mary (or possibly Maria) where the wife's maiden name is also Sullivan, who are producing children around this time. However they are in Liverpool (baptisms at Our Lady of Reconciliation), not Birkenhead so I'm pretty sure David is one of the family we are looking at.
why did Jeremiah and Anna
A marriage a bit later isn't uncommon, are you sure they are both original RC, and just in case one wasn't have you checked for an adult baptism? If they were away from parents and family the cost of the marriage might also have been taken into account and they used their money for more urgent matters - food?
If no child shows up in the indexes I wouldn't stress too much, there may have been a still birth, these not being registered you may never discover that truth.
Could Jeremiah have been
Could Jeremiah have been previously married or Anna had children out of wedlock?
Have you had sight of the 1858 marriage certificate?
I've been scratching an itch,
I've been scratching an itch,
The marriage between Thomas Browne and Frances Sullivan didn't sit right with me, perhaps done without her parents consent.
Their disappearance after perhaps suggests a bit of a sham and it never went in any direction other than splitting up.
The marriage below had so many similarities I looked in to it, you will notice the address Portland St and father, Jeremiah.
Frances Brown, spinster, so her father would have to be called Brown.
Husband, Daniel Moylan died 1893 and there's a coroners report in the Liverpool Mercury, Killed himself on his cart.
Given address in that report, 105 Upper Beau-Street, Liverpool.
Electoral Rolls, 1892/93
105 Upper Beau Street,
Elizabeth Sullivan.
1881, 6 Conway St, West Derby
1881, 6 Conway St, West Derby
NameAgeDaniel Moylan30Francis Moylan27Henry H. Moylan27Elizabeth Moylan20Henry H. Moylan
Margaret Norris51Elizabeth Norris30
Transcribed, Anc.
I assume that Henry H Moylan
I assume that Henry H Moylan snr and Elizabeth Moylan are relatives (maybe brother & sister-in-law to Daniel) even though they are shown as boarders. Little doubt that we have the correct Franc(i/e)s.
Yet again Bert, I think your
Yet again Bert, I think your instinct is 100% correct. I wonder why the need for a sham marriage? I think the connection with Elizabeth Sullivan is interesting, but in 1892 Elizabeth daughter of Jeremiah and Ann would only have been 21 so ineligible to vote. Elizabeth was married to James Seagrove (shedsman in tannery) and living at 76 St Paul's Rd Birkenhead in 1901, with her widowed mother Anna Scollins living with them. James and Elizabeth married Q3 1900 in Birkenhead. James was born 16 April 1870 in Dublin. By 1891 he was living with his Irish family at 1 Clare St Tranmere. His father was a tanner. At the 1911 census James and Elizabeth are at 82 Olney St Walton with 6 children. He spells the surname Segrave at that point and that's how it appears from then on. There's a family tree on Ancestry which shows the family. James died in 1937 in Bootle, and Elizabeth died in Q3 1939, apparently before the date of the 1939 Register. The Segrave children are shown at 16 St Catherine's Rd Bootle, all single, so presumably this was the family home.
Pure speculation about the
Pure speculation about the marriage to Thomas Browne, as I said, were the parents aware of it. If Thomas Browne was a lot older, did he regret marrying a young child who perhaps didn't live up to his expectation.
If she was widowed she would have no problem declaring so for her second marriage, she was hiding something in my view.
I don't know who Elizabeth of Upper Beau Street is, though I didn't expect her to be the sister, thinking more towards Aunt.
I don't know who Elizabeth of
Possibly connected to Edward Sullivan who cropped up as Godparent to Cath Sullivan 30 July 1859, maybe a relative of Jeremiah's?
Was there anyone else on the Electoral Register at/near that address who might be of interest?
Incidentally, on the subject
Incidentally, on the subject of Frances O'Sullivan/Moylan, I'm not even sure that Jeremiah was her biological father. She and mother Anna came from Dublin. There's no obvious record of her birth c. 1855, or of Anna's for that matter. I wonder where Jeremiah (from Co. Kerry afterall) and Anna first met, in Ireland or Liverpool? Mass exodus from Ireland due to the famine was around 1845 -1855.
Going back to marriage
Going back to marriage between Daniel and Francis, do you have any idea what the surname of the two witnesses might be?
I would favour, John Dunn,
I would favour, John Dunn, Mary Ann Dunn
I was thinking, Da... but you
I was thinking, Da... but you are probably right. Doesn't appear to be significant at this stage.
Need some advice on Catholic
Need some advice on Catholic confirmations here. The image below shows confirmations at Holy Cross Church on 31 March 1876. Vauxhall Rd was within the parish of Holy Cross. The ages for Catherine O'Sulivan and Mary Ann O'Sullivan fit. The last name is probably Mary Ann Scollins, daughter of Patrick and Marguerite Scollins, and again the age fits. Anna O'Sullivan married Patrick Q3 1873 after Marguerite's death Q3 1872. Marguerite's maiden name was Brennan, not O'Keefe. So my question is, how significant are the ditto marks in the fourth column, given that the name Marguerite O'Keefe lines up against Maria Anna Mc[whatever] and obviously wouldn't apply to the last three names. Could confirmation go ahead without the active participation of the mother, or is this just a bit laziness on the part of the priest? At the 1871 census Patrick and Marguerite were living at White Street which is some way to the south of Holy Cross, so I assume at this point (1876) the O'Sullivan and Scollins families were living together around the Portland Steet/Hornby St area.
Nomina Patrinorum, she is the
Nomina Patrinorum, she is the sponsor of the girls.
"A Confirmation sponsor is preferably one of the baptismal sponsors. A sponsor should be at least 16 years of age and a confirmed Catholic who has received Eucharist and who leads a faith-filled life. Parents may not be sponsors. ":
Just seen you Upper Beau St
Just seen your Upper Beau St question,
1891/92 55 Upper Beau St, Elizabeth Sullivan, ERoll
1891 census
Thanks for both those replies
Thanks for both those replies. That's the confirmation sorted, just need to find Mary Ann O'Sullivan's baptism now. And the Upper Beau St census is excellent. I hadn't got as far as the 1891 census for them.
Andy,
Andy,
Have we come across this one before,
Yes, I knew about her and the
Yes, I knew about her and the baptism. She died aged 5 (Q1 1874 Birkenhead 8a 329). I got a little excited about the Godparents at one point becasue Callaghan had popped up in another context, but nothing came of that.
Just a brief update. The two
Just a brief update. The two burials Bert found (post 13) for John and David Sullivan turn out to be the children of James and Margaret Sullivan (maiden name Sullivan) living at 14 St Mary's Gate. They died of scarlet fever, David on the 30th October 1866 and John 3 days later. This means that we can rule out David (born 12 Jan 1864) altogether. That also answers the point made by MaryA (post 20) about David's baptism not being recorded at St Werburgh's. I still haven't been able to find a death for Jeremiah and Anna's child John who was born 31 Jan 1857 and was with the family at the time of the 1861 census though not in 1871. Unfortunately there are quite a few John Sullivans who died in that decade, so unless some other evidence comes to light, I don't intend to spend too much time on that issue.
One other small piece of information has also come in via the birth cetificates for Jeremiah and Anna's daughters, Ann born 16 Feb 1869 (with the family at 233 Vauxhall Rd as in the 1871 census), and Elizabeth born on 6 Dec 1871 when the family were at 67 Portland Street (as was previously known from Jeremiah's death cert). In both cases the births were registered by Anna O'Sullivan who made a mark rather than a signature.
Aother update, but possibly
Another update, but possibly one which raises more questions than it answers. I now have the marriage certs for Jeremiah and Anna, and Frances and Thomas Browne.
Jeremiah O'Sullivan and Anna Woodhouse married at the Liverpool register office on 6 November 1858. His age is recorded as 23 (but this is plainly wrong when compared to the ages in the censuses and at his death), he is a bachelor and a labourer. His father is given as John O'Sullivan MD. Anna's details are: age 25 (slightly out compared to censuses where the year of birth usually resolves to 1835), spinster and no occupation. Her father is given as John Woodhouse, btton maker. Jeremiah signs, but Anna marks her mark (this accords with the times when she has registered births and deaths of her children). If the MD for the occupation of Jeremiah's father stands for medical doctor as one might assume, it is unsurprising that Jeremiah is literate. The bride and groom are residing at Burlington St, Liverpool. Burlington Street runs parallel to Portland Street and leads off Vauxhall road. The witnesses are John and Hugh Donnelly.
Thomas Browne and Frances Sullivan married at St Anthony's on 18 Jan 1869 (as we knew from the entry in the church register in post 23). Thomas is shown as 26, a bachelor and his occupation is given as tailor of 23 Warburton St West Derby, and his father is Thomas Browne also a tailor. Frances Sullivan's age is given as 16 years, spinster and no occupation, living at 233 Vauxhall Rd. Her father is Jeremiah Sullivan, labourer. Both make their mark in the register. The witnesses are the same as in post 23.
Quite a few anomalies arise from these two documents. When, after Jeremiah's death, Anna remarries in August 1873 on the marriage certificate she gives her age as 37 (so year of birth 1835/6) but her father's occupation is now farrier which seems to be a considerable career change from button maker.
Obviously Frances's claimed age is a lie if the earlier census information giving a year of birth of 1855 is correct. Indeed given that the month of the marriage is January, she might well have been as young as 13 years of age. However the address and father's details confirm this is the correct person. We now have an age, a new address and a trade for Thomas, but none of this helps establish where he is in the censuses both before and after the marriage. Bert, are you able to shed any light on who might have been living at 23 Warburton St, West Derby around this time? Warburton St used to be off Hall Lane, where the Liverpool University Hospital now stands. Intringuingly while I was checking the 1881 Kelly's for Warburton St, Liverpool, I noticed a Jeremiah Sullivan provisions dealer at 26 Warburton St. We know from the 1881 census that 'our' Jeremiah, son of Jeremiah, was a carter living at Hornby St, so we can rule him out.
The next anomaly is that in Jan 1869 Frances cannot sign her name, yet if the marriage to Daniel Moylan in 1872 is the same person, she is able to sign the register in a fairly neat hand three years later.
Before going to look for
Before going to look for responses to a couple of other points I just wanted to refer to
You say both bride and groom signed their names, there would often have been a stigma about the bride being able to read and write when the husband wasn't able to, so she may well have just not owned up to it.
Thanks Mary, that's good
Thanks Mary, that's good point, especially if she was 13/14 years of age and he was 26!