I am hoping that someone may be able to help me regarding my grandmother. I have access to Ancestry however I have reached a dead end and don’t know what else I can do to find out more information. My grandmother was called Mary Russell and she was born around 1872-75. She married my grandfather Thomas Foster (born 1870) in April 1894 in St. Peter’s, Seel street. On the marriage certificated he is stated as being age 24 and she is 19. Her father is stated as Michael Russell. I think I have then found them on the 1901 and the 1911 census, however their ages are only 1 year apart on both these census returns. I know these census returns are correct as the names and ages of the children are correct (Their son William born 1905 is my father). I don’t understand how the ages are not compatible and not sure how to find out any more information. I can remember my grandfather dying before my grandmother and I think she died in Belmont street hospital in the mid 1950s. Any help would be gratefully received including any suggestions on where else I can look for information.
Mary Russell b. Q4 1871 Liverpool 8b 124 mother's maiden name Gaughan.
Ann Gaughan married Michael Russell Q4 1861 Liverpool 8b 464.
1871 Census. 16 New Bird Street Liverpool. Michael Russell Hd 33 Married Mariner (Naval Reserve) Born Ireland, Ann wife 28 born Ireland; Catherine dau 7 scholar born Liverpool; Michael son 4 scholar born Liverpool; Thomas son 2 born Liverpool
1881 Census 38 Gordon St Liverpool. Michael Russell Widower 56 (?) Dock labourer Born Ireland; Catherine dau 17 Housekeeper b. Liverpool; Michael son 13 scholar b. Liverpool; Thomas son 11 scholar b. Liverpool; Mary dau 9 b. Liverpool.
Ann Russell died age 36 Q2 1879 West Derby 8b 271.
I can't explain Michael's age discrepancy in 1881 other than an error on the part of the enumerator.
In 1891 Michael Russell Widower 52 Dock Labourer born Ireland living with daughter Catherine and her husband Michael Brown and their children at 29 Gordon St Liverpool
Many thanks Andy, I had seen an Ann gaughan on a suggestion on ancestry but I couldn't tie the information together. My concern that Mary's age was 5 years younger than Thomas in marriage certificate but only one year apart on the 2 census returns? Could this just be an error, I can't understand why she would state her ge a 19 when if that's her birth in 1871 she would be 23 when she married -which is one year less than Michael's which ties in with the census. Can you find a record of her death as I can't find anything even in her maiden name but I do remember being a child when she died and we visited her in Belmont Hospital. She was a catholic and all her children were baptised in the Catholic Church, however we were not close to my fathers side because my mother was not a catholic. Thanks again, I wish I knew more but as I said we were never very close.
Sorry, I forgot to add that Mary Russell also present in 1891 at 29 Gordon Street. Shown as single, sister, 20 domestic servant born Liverpool.
As for the anomaly of Mary's age at the time of her marriage, I haven't got a good explanation, but I think that the fact that her age in the 1901 census conforms with that given in the earlier censuses, is more persuasive. Unless I found the wrong Mary Foster in 1911 her age seems to have gone haywire again, at 36, when we would expect it to be 39 or thereabouts.
As for her death, without knowing a rough year, that's difficult as there are several possibles. There are quite a few Catholic burials around 1938 -1951 at Ford Cemetery
I do remember being a child when she died and we visited her in Belmont Hospital.
Could you estimate a date this happened, would she have been on the 1939 register and does anybody in the family have an idea of what area she would have lived in. The same information would be useful in a search of Ford Cemetery which is where, like Andy, I would expect her RC burial to have taken place.
Thanks Andy, yes that's her on the 1911 census living at Mount View as the children are correct. So yes the ages don't really add up but I'm sure I have the correct marriage record and the census returns are correct. I'm in contact with my cousin on this side who is older than me so she might remember more about her death but I think now it could have been late 1950s and she was living at Simpson street at the time of her death but she was in Belmont Hospital. My cousin said she was nearly 90 when she dies so going by the birth date you found she could have died as late as 1960/1?
Mary, many thanks for your reply, as far as I know she never lived outside the Liverpool one area all her life, this side of my family never left this area according to my cousin, who still lives there. Thomas I think died in the 1940s however not sure when. Although Mary was catholic Thomas, I believe was not. How would I search the Ford Cemetry records, are they on ancestry?
Glad you found your way to the RC burials on Ancestry, the 1939 register is also on there and so if you search for some family members, such as mentioned by Bertie above in Simpson Street, it will give you the exact date of birth of both, hopefully on this they will have told the truth. Using www.gro.gov.uk site you should be able to find the entry you need, maybe purchase a birth certificate at the cheaper .pdf file price, however more importantly it should confirm the mother's maiden name to help you work backwards with correct ages.
Thanks everyone, I didn't see your replies. My cousin said our nana died whilst they lived at Simpson street, she said they didn't move to Robertson street. The two certificates you showed Bert are indeed my family. Mary was married to Thomas and they had a son Thomas born 1894, who married Emma Butler. They also had a son John who married a Mary Fenner ( hence another Mary Foster) John and Mary Fenner had a daughter Mary too so there could have been 3 Mary fosters in the house at any time which makes it difficult to know who was who. My cousin thinks our nana died before 1960 but said she was 89 when she dies so 1960 seems about right.
If you look at the Electoral Rolls, it appears that large parts of Simpson Street disappear after 1960. I haven't got sufficient knowledge of the area to say why, possibly clearance for redevelopment?
John Foster who married Mary Fenner lived in Simpson Street, 1939 reg and various members of the Foster family lived there up to 1960.
In 1961, John Foster, Margaret Foster and Mary Foster are at 29 Robertson Street, It's difficult to tell from Electoral Rolls, I suspect this John Foster is the son of John Foster and Mary Fenner. He married? Margaret R Wilcock, 1950, Liverpool, the families lived next to each other in Simpson St?
I'm not sure when the Electoral Rolls are compiled, possibly within the previous year, so the Mary Foster buried 1960 I assume is the Mary Foster at 29 Robertson Street living with Grandson?
I'm not sure when the Electoral Rolls are compiled, possibly within the previous year, so the Mary Foster buried 1960 I assume is the Mary Foster at 29 Robertson Street living with Grandson?
According to "Electoral Registers 1832 -1948" by Jeremy Gibson published by the Family History Partnership 2008, for the period 1832 - 1918 the qualifying date for electoral registers was 15 or 31 July. However for the period 1832-1867 the register actually came into force in the same year (on 1 December or 30 November) whereas from 1867 onwards the date the register came into force was 1 January of the next year. So a register dated 1860 was compiled in July 1860. As most people know, from 1918 up to 1948 there were two registers per year so there were two qualifying dates.
I am currently researching my family tree, I have come across a census record 1911 for a ancestor living in Beaufort street Liverpool 8, it says my ancestor was a shopkeeper and that the business was fried fish. I was just wondering if anyone as any information on this.
I'm wondering if the description should be fruit and fish, rather than fried fish. There are several fruit and fish hawkers listed in Beaufort Street: Mary Schofield age 55 married fruit and Fish hawker at 155 Beaufort St; John Miles Lester 26 single Fruit and fish hawker 102 Beaufort St ; Sarah Ann McAndrew 58 widow Fish hawker 31 Beaufort St; Rose Ann McNally 31 Married Fruit and fish hawker 222 Beaufort St; John Carter 58 Single Fruit and fish Hawker 188 Beaufort st.
No sign of any fried fish when I trawled through (excuse the pun) the census for Beaufort street, all 330 dwellings, most of them doubles so around 600 households!
My view is Isabella took over the premises, 63 Beaufort St from Thomas Aldridge around 1910/11, don't know if she just lived there or it was also a Fish and Chip Shop. Thomas Aldridge, 1911 census, 5 Beaumont St, occupation, Fried Fish and Chipped Potato Shop.
My G G Grandmother, Henrietta Stewart, possibly Sherlock, was I believe the daughter of Robert Stewart, a sergeant major with the 29th Foot regiment. She was born in Mauritius, where he was posted, around 1825. Where is the best place to look for a birth certificate or birth record?
The GRO has a specific section for military births overseas for the period before national registration, based on returns made by chaplains. However the nearest to the Henrietta Stewart/Sherlock born Mauritius 1825 +/- 2years you are looking for is Mary Stewart (first image below); next post shows the Sherlock entries.
I have all but finished my family history research but have two outstanding quests for information. One relates to this post from March last year.
Andy J, could you re-post the "list of Sherlock" for me as I cannot bring up anything from the hyperlink? Perhaps the link has lapsed?
Further to that query, I have tried contacting the Civil Status Division in Mauritius re other family birth and/or death records but seem to be going round in circles. Has anyone got experience of dealing with this department that might help?
Mary, Thank you, with your help I found Walton Workhouse/Hospital, but didn't find the person I was hoping to find. Some years I had asked for help, on the old site, in finding Sarah Stewart Corrin b 1896 Bootle, but no one could find her.
I have trawled through Bootle Hospital/ Walton Prison/Elm House (asylum), and 1200 inmates of Walton Workhouse, as well as researching all of her known relatives, including those in the Isle of Man. Any ideas as to where else I could look please?
There is a Sarah S Carrinborn 1897 in Bootle living in Seaforth in 1901, parents James and Catherine E Carrin. Living at 50 Verdi Street. Others are children Catherine and Robert.
big g did James remarry in 1909? Census shows married to an Elizabeth (Dixon) and a child Robert, age matches as on the 1901 return but no sign of Sarah or Catherine.
John's find seems to suggest that she may have died before 1909, but as we all know they aren't always truthful about being widowed etc. I wonder if for any reason she may have ended up in Rainhill, if you check for deaths at a later date, if one shows up as fitting, the registration district would be Prescot for that. Just a thought that might be worth looking at but might not be right.
Name:Catherine E CorrinAge:38Record Type:BurialBirth Date:abt 1868Death Date:abt 1906Burial Date:13 May 1906Burial Place:Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Bertie, Yes that is the death, I have Catherine Ellen Corrin's death certificate. James did remarry to Elizabeth Dixon 24 May 1908 at Linacre Mission Hall, they had three children who all sadly died in early childhood. Sarah Stewart Corrin 1896 died 1985 Brookside House. She was my grandmother, in 1916 she was living Clifford Street, Bootle, where she gave birth to a daughter, Sarah's occupation on this certificate is given as 'servant'. In 1918 she has a son, born Walton Hospital, but living Park Street Bootle. 'factory worker'.
I think it unlikely at her age to be in an Industrial School, more likely out to work already, and I've often wondered if some of the servants in a household are simply overlooked, it's happened before.
It seems to me, depending if it was allowed then as it is now, she has had the baby in Southport, hence address and registered the birth in Liverpool.
She should have registered the birth in the nearest Registration office to the birth, the Liverpool office has transferred the details over to Southport.
Basically a birth can be registered at any Register Office and the details are then forwarded to the Registrar of the area where the birth took place who then post the certificate to the parent(s). I did this with my daughter as we ended up living in a completely different area to that where she was born and that happened with us.
Looking again at your query It might not be quite as straightforward as that.
Was there an amendment made to the certificate of any sort with a note after the end of the certificate by the registrar. It is difficult without actually seing the certificate.
I think what has happened here is that the mother's address was not included in the original registration and becuase it was different to where the baby was born it was added later hence the declaration and the dated note.
All Lancashire, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1935 results for 48a Tulketh Street in 1889 has Frederick Howard and Margaret Graham as residents. In 1894/95 only Margaret is shown.
Wow.....tracked her down......she's a widow .....but also, if I'm right a nurse. At on stage has her niece with her whose a ladies nurse......presumably....a midwife. Thank you this has answered a lot....I think !!!
This is my first post to LSWLFHS, so hoping for great things!
I am researching my direct 'JUMP' ancestors in the Liverpool & Lancashire area. I have now arrived pre-1800 when of course things get a lot harder.
The earliest documented record I have is a marriage record for John Jump, husbandman, to Mary Wright on (Monday!) 10th October 1796 at St Mary's Walton-on-the-Hill, after banns on 25th Sep and 2nd & 9th October. The witness is a Thomas Wright (possibly a relation of Mary). Apart from the vicar's name, Henry Heathcote, there is no other information on the microfiche. (I have googled the rectors/vicars of this church and the notes about the Heathcotes are fascinating in themselves - https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/lancs/vol3/pp5-11)
I am now therefore looking, in online parish records, where I can find them, for possible births of a John Jump, probably pre-1780, somewhere in the vicinity of St Marys Walton-on-the-Hill, but possibly further afield. I currently have only found three favourite possibilities online (LAN-OPC): Prescot 1770, Formby 1774 & Croston 1772. There are others too, ie a son of a ropemaker (almost certainly married later as a ropemaker) and a son of a tallow chandler (not found a marriage but in terms of probabilities I'm assuming he didn't become a husbandman!). There's also a Baptism: John Jump 24 Jul 1782 St Andrew, Maghull, but that would make him 14 at marriage (I know it was technically legal, but again, probabilities . . .)
There are of course some courageous family trees on Ancestry claiming the Croston one is correct but I have had no responses from the owners to back this up with any evidence.
I guess there could be banns records for St Mary's at the records office, but I won't be getting there anytime soon (I'm in the south-east now), and they might not add anything about his parents.
Anybody got any views of anything else I could be doing online - even if only to reassure me that there isn't!
Hi and welcome. It's very difficult online for those dates. The name Jump rang bells with me and I believe I've come across it in Parish Records for Childwall, All Saints, so that might be another place to consider, unfortunately the only Register I have for there is for dates between 1681 and 1753. I'm not sure that the later Film has been put online. Just checked Ancestry and it doesn't seem to be listed in the early Registers.
There doesn't seem to be any burials at St Mary's Walton on the Hill for the name Jump, so presumably they didn't live in the vicinity of the church itself, but perhaps further away.
Have you checked for Wills? I've often found that checking them might give a clue, not just for the names of interest, but others might mention them. There is quite a list in Lancashire https://user.xmission.com/~nelsonb/lws.htm These are available at Lancashire Record Office, unfortunately in Preston, or very likely at the Cheshire Archives also. They do have a look up and photograph facility but won't be cheap, however, perhaps it will be cheaper than a visit at present.
There aren't always Banns available, sometimes not deposited with the Record Office, or simply not kept by the Church, and at that date the marriage record doesn't have any additional information.
Thanks Mary. Yes, I have several descendants of John in Childwall, and LAN-OPC has Jumps all over Lancashire - the issue is connecting them! Thanks for the wills tip/link - I'm slowly getting my head round other sources beyond BMDs.
A marriage license, issued either by church or state, authorises a couple to marry in circumstances where a marriage would otherwise be illegal e.g. if the necessary period of notice for the marriage has not been given. Whereas, in "normal" circumstances, the banns of marriage are the public announcement by church or Register Office, of an impending marriage between the couple, thereby allowing objections to be made e.g. one or other party is already married, or under age. I believe arrangements for banns vary somewhat between Church denominations.
Seems to be quite common prior to 1837. I've always thought it a shame that it doesn't give any additional information, I've lived in hopes.
Thank you Mary for explaining. Must say I find the language on these old documents very difficult to understand. Hadn't come across this one before and seeing £500 mentioned really confused me!
Still something else I've learnt now, so many thanks
I am trying to find the parents of Jonathon Lawrenson who married Rachel Walker in 1775 in Rainford, which is why I am thinking he may have ben born early/mid 1750s. Rachel was 75 when she died 1827 and Jonathon died 1812 but burial records do not give his age.
Between 1777 and 1799 the couple had 8 children, all of whom were baptised in Rainford in the parish of Prescot although the family's abode is often given as Upholland. It looks as though their son Launcelot born 1787 had a twin called Samuel but this is just a transcription error. Jonathon is described as a 'husbandman' on most records.
As well as Rainford/Prescot and Upholland, he may have had links with Warrington.
Can anyone help with finding his birth or indeed anything else about him please?
Marriage: 3 Dec 1705 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Henry Lawrenson - Of this Parish
Ellin Harrockes - Of this Parish
Married by Banns
Register: Marriages 1699 - 1743, Page 4, Entry 13
Source: LDS Film 1849663
It appears that this family are reasonably documented and yet there doesn't appear to be a marriage for Matthias Lawrenson or variations of the name to anyone.
There doesn't appear to be a marriage between a Lawrenson or variations to a Susannah, which there would have to be for Susannah to be a widow. This may bode well for Matthias and Susannah living as a married couple and not taking the plunge.
Thanks, everyone - I've made a note of your findings and trying to see where it all gets me.
The back story is that I have 3 Lawrenson families with connections to Warrington, Upholland and Liverpool, who are all closely linked but I cannot make the connection.
1) My 3x great grandmother is Elizabeth Lawrenson who was born in Warrington 1807 to John (of cotton checker fame) and Margaret. She subsequently marries William Gordon in Liverpool. 6 DNA links
tell me this is the right family although on the 1851 census she says she was from Upholland
2) Her death in 1858 is reported by Sarah Lawrinson who married a William Martindale (stonemason from Upholland) in Liverpool in 1824 - she also claims on a couple of censuses that she is from Upholland although my best-guess up to now for a birth is in 1807 in Lymm with parents Samuel and Mary (a Samuel Lawrinson and Mary Hargreaves marry in 1806 in Warrington)
3) Sarah seems very close to a William Lawrinson and his family in Liverpool. He is a tailor and their first child was born in Liverpool 1797 but I cannot find a marriage. His widow is living with Sarah at the time of the 1841 census and their children and Sarah are witnesses at each others' weddings while William Martindale dies at the home of William Lawrinson's daughter in 1865, again suggesting close links. Jonathon Lawrenson in Upholland had a son called William in 1777 which was why I was taking a punt at that line (seems to be the main Lawrinson family in Upholland at the time of the 1841 census).
Perhaps next steps:
1) can anyone help me find out any more about Sarah's parents - perhaps Samuel Lawrenson and Mary Hargreaves?
2) can anyone help me find William Lawrenson's parents? Or his marriage? According to the birth record of one of his children, the wife was Margaret Johnson and her father was Thomas and I did find a possible baptism for her at Tarleton Chapel on 3rd nov 1765 although she had her last child in 1812 so I don't know if dates really work.
As always, any help or hints would be gratefully received.
I believe the Lawrensons connected with my family are from Childwall, there are a few graves in All Saints church, Childwall and I think they are connected,
I don't believe in cluttering our forum with DNA stuff, but if you have uploaded your raw data to MyHeritage or FamilytreeDNA I have three/four kits of family members connected to this branch and if you would like to send me a message with your details I could look into them.
The below is possibly Samuel Lawrenson and his siblings, the only possible parents I could find are John Lawrenson and Mary Worral, Grappenhall, 1751, John was a Taylor/Tailor
Baptism: 21 Apr 1758 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Mary Lawrenson - Daughter of Jno. Lawrenson & Mary
Occupation: Tayler
Register: Baptisms 1733 - 1760, Page 167, Entry 16
Source: LDS Film 1562956
Baptism: 31 May 1761 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Jas. Lawrinson - Son of Jno. Lawrinson & Mary
Occupation: Taylor
Register: Baptisms 1760 - 1781, Page 12, Entry 13
Source: LDS Film 1562957
Baptism: 22 May 1763 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Saml. Lawrinson - Son of John Lawrinson & Mary
Occupation: Taylor
Register: Baptisms 1760 - 1781, Page 29, Entry 16
Source: LDS Film 1562957
Baptism: 27 Mar 1768 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Saml. Lawrinson - Son of John Lawrinson & Mary
Occupation: Taylor
Register: Baptisms 1760 - 1781, Page 72, Entry 6
Source: LDS Film 1562957
Baptism: 9 May 1773 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Margt. Lawrinson - Daughter of Jno. Lawrinson & Mary
Occupation: Taylor
Register: Baptisms 1760 - 1781, Page 121, Entry 6
Perhaps there are other children born in Cheshire before the Warrington births.
Bert, you could be on to something with the Wm/Margaret marriage. 'R; and 'L' could hvae been transposed - I'll take a look on the trade directories and see if a Wm Rawlinson, tailor turns up - Wm Lawrinson occurs a few times.
Tour findings in no. 13 take me back another generation - the James you refer to 5x great grandfather so it is good to have his parents. Following on from your comments, I found John L and Mary W had a son, John, baptised 1752 in Grappenhall. James was a saddler and became a tailor in the mid-1780s - I have found a death of a John Lawrenson, tailor, in Warrington in 1789 with a d.o.b of 1729 so I am wondering if James took over the family business due to his father's illness and/or age.
It would help if Samuel was the father of the Sarah born 1806 in Lymm as that would make her and my 3x great grandmother (Elizabeth) cousins and might explaiin why Sarah reported Elizabeth;s death. However, there is also a marriage in Warrington between a Samuel Lawrinson and an Ellen Savage in 1788, which I though might be more likely for a man born in 1768. They have a son (John) in 1790 but then I lose them. I was wondering if the marriage to Mary Hargreaves in 1806 could be Samuel's 2nd marriage but cannot find a death for Ellen.
Anything you can help me with on this line of enquiry, Bert?
The name seems to be pretty consistently spelt with a 'w; so I reckon this birth might not be the one I am looking for after all! Talk about elusive!
I also looked in the trade directories for a William Rowlinson/Rawlinson who was a tailor but couldn't spot anything suitable so perhaps Bert has got the right marriage after all.
Does anyone know where Tarleton Chapel was - was it in St Helens or Liverpool? I googled it but it didn;t seem very clear! A Margaret Johnson with a father Thomas was baptised there in 1765.
Marriage records for Samuel Lawrinson with Mary Hargreaves 1806 and with Ellen Savage in 1788 have the surname spelt with a 'w' so not sure where that gets me!
Bert: it seems that Tarleton is about 12 miles from Upholland - could I be on the track of finding a link between the Lawrensons in Liverpool. Warrington abd Upholland?!
Also, remember you found that John Lawrenson married Mary Worrall? Could there be a link with the Worralls who had the cotton factory? Iy was Mary's grandson who was an apprentice with them.
The below appear to be the children born to Samuel Lawrenson and Ellen Savage, married 1788, this Samuel is a Tailor, which suggests it is not the same Samuel who married Mary Hargreaves, but of course occupations can change. Note another variation of the name.
Baptism: 23 Nov 1788 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
John Lawrinson - Son of Saml Lawrinson & Ellen
Occupation: Tailor
Register: Baptisms 1781 - 1812, Page 88, Entry 2725
Source: LDS Film 1562957
Burial: 25 Apr 1790 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
John Lawrinson - Son of Saml. Lawrinson & Ellen
Age: 1Yr 5m
Occupation: Tailor
Register: Burials 1779 - 1812, Page 92, Entry 9
Source: LDS Film 1562958
Baptism: 20 Jun 1790 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Margaret Lawrinson - Daur of Saml Lawrinson & Ellen
Occupation: Tailor
Register: Baptisms 1781 - 1812, Page 108, Entry 3327
The below appear to be the children of Samuel Lawrenson and Mary Hargreaves, 1803 marriage.
Baptism: 3 Jun 1810 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Thomas Lawrinson - Son of Samuel Lawrinson & Mary
Occupation: Labourer
Register: Baptisms 1781 - 1812, Page 331, Entry 11883
Source: LDS Film 1562957
Baptism: 18 Jan 1818 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Samuel Lawrinson - Son of Samuel Lawrinson & Mary
Abode: Appleton
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: J Topping Curate
Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1818, Page 296, Entry 2363
Source: LDS Film 1562959
Baptism: 20 Aug 1820 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Edward Lawrinson - Son of Samuel Lawrinson & Mary
Abode: Wilderspool
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: J Topping Curate
Register: Baptisms 1818 - 1822, Page 151, Entry 1206
Source: LDS Film 1562960
As for Sarah, born 1807, Lymm. We tend to think that a bride marries if possible in her own parish and church, Sometimes what you can't find is as important as what you can find. I can't find a marriage of Samuel Lawrenson and a Mary in Lymm or to the best of my geographic abilities one close by.
Though we are unlikely to prove it, perhaps Samuel and Mary went to work in Lymm and that's the reason the children started later in Warrington.
There is the marriage between Samuel L and Mary Hargreaves in Warrington in 1806 but the records I have looked at are really unclear.
The Samuel who married Ellen Savage in Warrington in 1788 could well be the son of John L and Mary Worrall - he would have been 20 when he married and the birth records of their 2 children I can find (John 1789 and Ellen 1790) indicate he was a tailor i.e. same profession as his father. I can't see any children after 1790 but nor can I find a death of an Ellen Savage so can't say if Sammuel was widowed and went on to marry Mary Hargreaves. Pity I can't find a record that gives me the profession of Mary Hargreaves's husband - can anyone else see one?
If you haven't signed up for Rootstech, it's a FREE few days online Conference, hosted by Familysearch with literally hundreds of talks online, you can also create a Playlist of those you want to watch at your own convenience later. Trawling through the list I cam across one I wondered if it might be useful to you, Using Locality Search to Solve Complex Problems. Don't know if it would be useful in this instance but it could.
Just tracked down on Ancestry a birth in 1818 for a Samuel Lawrenson - abode was Appleton so in the right area and parents were Samuel and Mary but he is a labourer so I am guessing this is not the son of John L and Mary Worral or the one who married Ellen Savage in 1788. So I guess these are probably not the parents of Sarah born in Lymm after all!
Bert, I think uou have probably as far as possible with this line (at least for the time being!) and I am delighted that I now know so much about Elizabeth Lawrenson's parents, grandparents and great grandparents. Amazing - thank you very much for your help.
However, I just wanted to make you aware of this little tale. I contacted someone who appeared to share my DNA by being a descendant of James's daughter, Margaret (1785-1834). He got back to me to tell me he had been adopted and knew virtually nothing about his maternal birth line. However, he recognised one of the names I sent him as being the maternal grandmother he had seen mentioned on his birth certificate. He is now on a very exciting journey of following up various names and when he has exhausted these lines of enquiry, I will tell him what we have found our about my John Lawrenson (who was Margaret's brother, of course), their parents (James and Elizabeth Pollock) and grandparents (John and Mary Worrall).
I have found an entry in the UK Register of Duties Paid Apprentices' Indentures 1710-1811 saying that in 1795 John Lawrinson was an apprentice to James and John Worrall in Warrington. In the job column it says: Check Cotton Manufacturers'. Can anyone enlighten me please?
When John marries in 1803, the marriage allegation gives his job as 'check manufacturer' - might be an 'r' on the end of 'check'.
3 months after his wedding, his job is given as 'warehouseman' on his daughter's birth certificate and this is how he is described on subsequent birth certificates.
Seems he was born 1782 (evidence from burial record as well as the marriage allegation saying he was over 21) so he would have been 13 when he was an apprentice.
This intrigues me as the company seems to have been solely round the Salford and Manchester areas so what were they doing with a 13 year old apprentice in Warrington? Quite a commute in the 1790s!
I'm thinking along the lines that John was training how to put the checks into the patterns rather than someone who checked for quality. Perhaps being a warehouseman was promotion or maybe he changed careers.
This line of my tree has puzzled me for several years as John's daughter, Elizabeth born 1807, states on the Liverpool census that she was born in Upholland which was why I have discounted John from Warrington for several years but Ancestry DNA results give me good grounds for believing he is the right line after all - just a few missing links.
There's many references in the directories, Check and Cotton manufacturers, also Check and Gingham manufacturers, apparently, Check and Gingham is a fine cotton cloth with a check pattern.
Any references to appropriate businesses in Warrington? I've always associated cotton manufacturing with Manchester and the northern towns - not thought about its links with Warrington. Would have been an interesting time. though - Industrial Revolution and all that!
Thanks, Bert. I might do a bit of research to see if there are any links between the cotton trade in Warrington and the Manchester factory as John and his family do not seem to have moved to Manchester at all. However, I guess I may have gone as far as I can with this link - don't worry though as I have plenty more Lawrenson issues!
Would some kind person help please before I go completely mad?
On Friday I received the marriage certificate for ISAAC RICHARDS and ELIZA SCOTT.
THe information on the certificate conflicts with waht I have. On the certificate ELIZA'S father is WILLIAM SCOTT and I have been believing that her father was DAVID SCOTT. This is because of information I was given when I first started family research about 15 years ago. I now think WILLIAM could have been born September Quarter 1857.
Could some kind person help me sort this by checking it out for me please. What I thought I could do is do my research and see what I can find out and then compare withat someone else has to check I am on the right road. I dont know if I wast to cry or scream at the moment. 15 yrs of wondering why I couldnt fi d David only as bei g born in Scotland and being married twice. When I first started someone from another site helped me lots but put me on wrong track. I think that maybe generations have got mixed up some how. Eliza is my Gt Gt grandmother.
Jas Quirk 56 Labourer born Ireland, Jno 18 Labourer,
Richard Kay 25 Carter, Amilia 20, James 15 months.
Everybody except James Quirk are born Liverpool, don’t know where child Caroline was, seems to be missed off the census, but as they are living in the same dwelling as Quirks I would believe them to be the right couple.
Makes William born approx. 1816 or a little earlier since the 1841 ages rounded down to nearest 5, however with Caroline being specifically 23 makes me think 1816 would be accurate.
Hello All, Thank you all for the help with my problem. I am sorry that I have not thanked you before now but I have not been well enough.
The problem was with me. Fool that I am and when I was begining with my research I was much to keen and took things at face value. I had help on another site in the very beginning that turned out to be wrong. I am now on the right track and will be checking everything in future.
Ok here's a first stab at
Ok here's a first stab at this.
Mary Russell b. Q4 1871 Liverpool 8b 124 mother's maiden name Gaughan.
Ann Gaughan married Michael Russell Q4 1861 Liverpool 8b 464.
1871 Census. 16 New Bird Street Liverpool. Michael Russell Hd 33 Married Mariner (Naval Reserve) Born Ireland, Ann wife 28 born Ireland; Catherine dau 7 scholar born Liverpool; Michael son 4 scholar born Liverpool; Thomas son 2 born Liverpool
1881 Census 38 Gordon St Liverpool. Michael Russell Widower 56 (?) Dock labourer Born Ireland; Catherine dau 17 Housekeeper b. Liverpool; Michael son 13 scholar b. Liverpool; Thomas son 11 scholar b. Liverpool; Mary dau 9 b. Liverpool.
Ann Russell died age 36 Q2 1879 West Derby 8b 271.
I can't explain Michael's age discrepancy in 1881 other than an error on the part of the enumerator.
In 1891 Michael Russell Widower 52 Dock Labourer born Ireland living with daughter Catherine and her husband Michael Brown and their children at 29 Gordon St Liverpool
Many thanks Andy, I had seen
Many thanks Andy, I had seen an Ann gaughan on a suggestion on ancestry but I couldn't tie the information together. My concern that Mary's age was 5 years younger than Thomas in marriage certificate but only one year apart on the 2 census returns? Could this just be an error, I can't understand why she would state her ge a 19 when if that's her birth in 1871 she would be 23 when she married -which is one year less than Michael's which ties in with the census. Can you find a record of her death as I can't find anything even in her maiden name but I do remember being a child when she died and we visited her in Belmont Hospital. She was a catholic and all her children were baptised in the Catholic Church, however we were not close to my fathers side because my mother was not a catholic. Thanks again, I wish I knew more but as I said we were never very close.
Sorry, I forgot to add that
Sorry, I forgot to add that Mary Russell also present in 1891 at 29 Gordon Street. Shown as single, sister, 20 domestic servant born Liverpool.
As for the anomaly of Mary's age at the time of her marriage, I haven't got a good explanation, but I think that the fact that her age in the 1901 census conforms with that given in the earlier censuses, is more persuasive. Unless I found the wrong Mary Foster in 1911 her age seems to have gone haywire again, at 36, when we would expect it to be 39 or thereabouts.
As for her death, without knowing a rough year, that's difficult as there are several possibles. There are quite a few Catholic burials around 1938 -1951 at Ford Cemetery
I do remember being a child
Could you estimate a date this happened, would she have been on the 1939 register and does anybody in the family have an idea of what area she would have lived in. The same information would be useful in a search of Ford Cemetery which is where, like Andy, I would expect her RC burial to have taken place.
Thanks Andy, yes that's her
Thanks Andy, yes that's her on the 1911 census living at Mount View as the children are correct. So yes the ages don't really add up but I'm sure I have the correct marriage record and the census returns are correct. I'm in contact with my cousin on this side who is older than me so she might remember more about her death but I think now it could have been late 1950s and she was living at Simpson street at the time of her death but she was in Belmont Hospital. My cousin said she was nearly 90 when she dies so going by the birth date you found she could have died as late as 1960/1?
Mary, many thanks for your reply, as far as I know she never lived outside the Liverpool one area all her life, this side of my family never left this area according to my cousin, who still lives there. Thomas I think died in the 1940s however not sure when. Although Mary was catholic Thomas, I believe was not. How would I search the Ford Cemetry records, are they on ancestry?
I have just found a burial
I have just found a burial record for Thomas in may 1945 which I'm sure must be him as the last address given is Simpson street.
I also found Thomas Foster,
I also found Thomas Foster, buried Anfield Cemetery, 42 Simpson St.
Jump to Mary Foster, buried, RC, Allerton Cemetery, 11 Oct, 1960, 29 Robinson St.
I believe Robinson St is incorrect and it should be 29 Robertson St.
If you track the family, 39 reg, John Foster, Mary Foster, Simpson St,
Look at the Electoral Rolls for Simpson St through to 1960, the family moves around that time to 29 Robertson St.
I suspect John is the son, Mary, John's wife? and Mary Snr, Thomas's wife.
Here is the link to the
Here is the link to the Ancestry catholic burials:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/2183/?name=mary_foster&bi…
Sorry Bert I must have posted at the same time, good find, my post can be ignored.
That's OK John, I was about
That's OK John, I was about to post the below,
Bernie,
Deleted. Duplicated Bert's posting of image
Glad you found your way to
Glad you found your way to the RC burials on Ancestry, the 1939 register is also on there and so if you search for some family members, such as mentioned by Bertie above in Simpson Street, it will give you the exact date of birth of both, hopefully on this they will have told the truth. Using www.gro.gov.uk site you should be able to find the entry you need, maybe purchase a birth certificate at the cheaper .pdf file price, however more importantly it should confirm the mother's maiden name to help you work backwards with correct ages.
Thomas and Mary Foster are
Thomas and Mary Foster are very likely the couple at Kitchen St, 39 reg.
Below a link to all the names mentioned,
On the 39 Reg, Mary gives her
On the 39 Reg, Mary gives her DOB, 16 Sept, 1871.
Those names definitely all
Those names definitely all tie in don't they, does that say Seel Street? and also mentions Old Swan?
On the 39 Reg, Mary gives her
I'm always amazed just how many people have their birthday one or two days out, but then birthdays didn't mean very much then.
Those names definitely all
Marriage of Thomas Foster, Emma Butler, 1920, Reg Office or Reg Att, St Oswald's, Old Swan
No wonder I couldn't get it,
No wonder I couldn't get it, I thought the first letter was a B.
Thanks everyone, I didn't see
Thanks everyone, I didn't see your replies. My cousin said our nana died whilst they lived at Simpson street, she said they didn't move to Robertson street. The two certificates you showed Bert are indeed my family. Mary was married to Thomas and they had a son Thomas born 1894, who married Emma Butler. They also had a son John who married a Mary Fenner ( hence another Mary Foster) John and Mary Fenner had a daughter Mary too so there could have been 3 Mary fosters in the house at any time which makes it difficult to know who was who. My cousin thinks our nana died before 1960 but said she was 89 when she dies so 1960 seems about right.
If you look at the Electoral
If you look at the Electoral Rolls, it appears that large parts of Simpson Street disappear after 1960. I haven't got sufficient knowledge of the area to say why, possibly clearance for redevelopment?
John Foster who married Mary Fenner lived in Simpson Street, 1939 reg and various members of the Foster family lived there up to 1960.
In 1961, John Foster, Margaret Foster and Mary Foster are at 29 Robertson Street, It's difficult to tell from Electoral Rolls, I suspect this John Foster is the son of John Foster and Mary Fenner. He married? Margaret R Wilcock, 1950, Liverpool, the families lived next to each other in Simpson St?
I'm not sure when the Electoral Rolls are compiled, possibly within the previous year, so the Mary Foster buried 1960 I assume is the Mary Foster at 29 Robertson Street living with Grandson?
1961 Robertson St
1961 Robertson St
I'm not sure when the
According to "Electoral Registers 1832 -1948" by Jeremy Gibson published by the Family History Partnership 2008, for the period 1832 - 1918 the qualifying date for electoral registers was 15 or 31 July. However for the period 1832-1867 the register actually came into force in the same year (on 1 December or 30 November) whereas from 1867 onwards the date the register came into force was 1 January of the next year. So a register dated 1860 was compiled in July 1860. As most people know, from 1918 up to 1948 there were two registers per year so there were two qualifying dates.
It seems to me a dead person
It seems to me a dead person has been left on the Roll, not the first.
Not recorded in 1962