Opening post by AndyJ »
2020 was the year I had hoped to get up to Liverpool to do some detailed research into my paternal grandmother's family, named Jackson. But for now I'm just concentrating on a few loose ends, like my great aunt Elizabeth Jackson, born 29 Nov 1894 (according to 1939Reg, birth certificate awaited*). She was the eighth child of George Jackson, a marine engineer (b1854) and Mary (nee Willcock b 1855). The Jackson family were then living at 35 Lind Street, Walton. She had an interesting life it would seem. On 2 December 1912 she married Erle (baptised as Earl) Clarence Edmonds at West Derby Register Office. The witnesses were William Johnstone (my grandfather) and the bride's sister Mary Ellen Jackson, later to become Mrs Johnstone (ie my grandmother) the following year. Clarence was born around August 1892 while his family were living in Walker Street, Everton. He was a bioscope (ie cinema) operator. The marriage only lasted a few months during which he was violent towards Elizabeth, before deserting her, according to her evidence when she later obtained a divorce in June 1939. Clarence then disappears from the record for a while only to reappear in South London at his marriage to Florence V Moss in 1940. Elizabeth doesn't sit around moping for long however. In the first quarter of 1915 a son Christy Jackson is born, only to die within a couple of months. The father was George Georgeopoulo, a cotton merchant. He had been born in about 1881, the son of Christos Georgeopoulo, also a cotton trader. He is the subject of this thread.
I know that he was Christy Jackson's father because Christy's death is registered under both surnames (Q2 1915 Liverpool 8b 108). A second child Nicholas was born in late 1916 or early 1917 (birth registered Q1 1917). This took some tracking down as the birth (and subseuent death in the same quarter) was registered as Nicholas with the surname George, mother's maiden name Jackson. The birth and death certificates are awaited, but I have little doubt that yet again the father was George Georgeopoulo, because Nicholas is recorded on the gravestone of the family burial plot in Anfield Cemetery (section G4 Grave 1582, Entry No 25090.) On 2 October 1920 Despina Georgeopoulo was born. The birth certificate openly acknowledges George as the father, and he and Elizabeth are shown as residing at 88 Princes Road, Toxteth. Something strange then occurs. In 1922 the birth of Christina Edmunds (not Edmonds) is registered with the mother's maiden name shown as Edmunds (birth certificate awaited). This would appear to be a clumsy attempt to disguise the illegitimacy of the child. Again there is little doubt that the father is George Georgeopoulo as Christina's death at the age of 8 in 1930 is registered in the name of Christina M Georgeopoulo, and again her brief life is recorded on the family grave. And finally on 20 July 1925 Andronichi Joanna Georgeopoulo (my godmother) was born. Once again the father is recorded correctly on the birth certificate, although Elizabeth is now calling herself Georgeopoulo, even though they don't actually marry until 13 October 1939, following Elizabeth's divorce from Clarence. At the time of Andro's birth, the family are living at 12 The Elms, Dingle. Looking at that property today on Google StreetView, it looks to be a very substantial house, so it would appear George was a successful businessman. But the problem is, apart from appearing on a couple of birth certificates (and later his own death on 28 June 1945 and subsequent will) there appears to very little trace of him in censuses or electoral registers that I have been able to search. He doesn't appear in the 1939 Register (Elizabeth and Andro were at 12 The Elms in 1939) and he was proabably too old to serve during World WarTwo. I don't even know if he had Brirtish citizenship.
So I'm looking for help in finding out anything more about George Georgeopoulo and his life, particularly in Liverpool. Trade directories, newspaper entries, travel details and so on. I only have access to FindMyPast at the moment but I did use Ancestry to do a search a couple of years ago; I'm hoping that they may now have more datasets which could prove fruitful. Sadly neither Despina or Andro had any children and so that branch of the family has died out.
By the way, if you search on the surname Georgeopoulo, there are several familes by that name in the North Eastern states of the USA. I haven't been able to tie in any connection with them.
* Elizabeth's birth date is also a potential problem, but not really the subject of this enquiry. The birth registration was Q1 1894 West Derby 8b 421, mmn Willcock, but this would be impossible if she was born in Nov 1894. On the family grave her dates are shown as Nov 1895 to April 1950. There's nothing to suggest that the Q1 1894 registration is for a child who didn't live, and the same name was passed on to a child born the following Autumn, even though this might be biologically possible.
Post by Bertieone »
Andy,
Much to take in,
There are numerous mentions in the Electoral rolls, 12 The Elms, living with, Lilly Georgeopoulo, not sure who she is yet?
1938 Directory, The Elms, Manager. Doesn't say what he is manager of.
Freemason records, Manager.
Post byAndyJ »
I wondered how long it would take you, Bertie! Thanks for that. I suspect there's lots more to come knowing you once you get your teeth into something. My best guess at present is that Lilly is Elizabeth's pet name. She died before I was born so I never knew her.
Andy
Post by Bertieone »
In 1923 he's alone at 88 Princess Rd, 1924/25, Lilly appears with him at the Elms.
Post by Bertieone »
Lilly is there in 1939,
The 1945 Electoral roll,
Post by Bertieone »
Possible, Not keen on this, there's many.
Name: Mr G Georgeopoulo
Departure Place: London, United Kingdom
Arrival Date: 23 Feb 1926
Arrival Place: Fremantle, Western Australia, Australia
Vessel: Osterley
Have you got Despino's marriage?
Post by erika »
Hi Andy
I know your request is about George, but I looked up the 1911 census for Elizabeth Jackson and found her living at 90 Robson Street, Everton.
Her father has remarried to a Norwegian lady ( 5 yrs ) and they have 2 children.
Elizabeth's age is given as 18, born 1893. Maybe she was born in November 1893 and the birth took a while to register which is why she is showing up in the March qtr of 1894.
Not sure if it's any help but you never know!
Cheers
Erika
Post by AndyJ »
Thanks Bertie and Erika for following up on this.
Bertie, presumably when you say George is alone at 88 Princes Road in 1923, that is from the electoral register rather than Kelly's etc? If so I would not expect Elizabeth to appear as she didn't own property (as far as I know) and only women over 30 were enfranchised by the 1918 Representation of the People Act. For the purposes of the1924/5 ER she would have been 30. I can't help feeling that if she was having his children, she wouldn't have been living far away! Anyway when I get the birth certificates for Christy, Nicholas and Christina we will have more information on that. As for the Osterley passenger manifest, I haven't seen that but I am keeping an extremely open mind about George G. As a cotton trader I would expect him to travel quite widely which is why I was surprised not to have found anything. You have probably already noticed that the more common spelling of the name is Georgeopoulos, but I have yet to see 'our' George's name spelled that way. And no, I don't have the exact details of Despie's marriage to Rosewell Van Leuven. I know she travelled over by air to the USA for that purpose in March 1947, and was widowed by Sept 1948.
Erika, Thanks for you input. Yes, George Jackson's second wife was a woman named Gunda Ingeborg Skarre. She was born in Norway in 1875 (near Stavanger if I remember correctly), so was younger than George J by some years. She was a stewardess on the North Atlantic liners operated by the Allan Royal Mail Line, which is where she met George. He was a Chief Engineer with the Allen Line. Another family member researched George Jackson's maritime career and tabulated all the occasions they were both crew on the same ship, between 1902, and 1906 when they married. Mary, his first wife died in December 1904. Gunda lived to the ripe old age 93 and was bright as a button even in old age when I knew her. When George died in 1932 he was buried with his first wife in Kirkdale Cemetery.
George and Gunda's children were Olaf Haakon G Jackson (b 1907, d 1977), and Eva Wilhelmina Jackson (b. 1909 d. 2003). Eva is another family member with a less than straightforward romantic life! I think you are probably right about Elizabeth's actual year of birth, and maybe we can put the later references (1939Reg and the grave stone) down to forgetfulness. Afterall she does seem to be unable to remember her own surname at times!
Post by Bertieone »
Andy,
Lilly first appears at The Elms in 1924, as does George,
First appearance for George in the records, Freemason's 1919.
For Despina, you have the record that popped up.
Just to add, the only Directory George appears in is 1938. available on Anc
Post by AndyJ »
As ever, thanks Bertie. Do you have anything more on the Freemasons? The lodge etc? I have found the Museum of Freemasonary here in London to be extemely helpful in researching membership of their organisation, although I may need to wait after lockdown to pursue that.
Post by Bertieone »
Name: George Georgepouls
Gender: Male
Initiation Age: 39
Birth Year: abt 1880
Initiation Date: 28 Jun 1919
First Payment Year on Register: 1919
Year Range: 1910-1921
Profession: Manager
Lodge: Liberty Lodge
Lodge Location: Liverpool
Lodge Number: 3888
Folio Number: 68
Bert
Post by AndyJ »
That's excellent, thanks Bertie. I will get in touch with my contact at the Museum of Freemasonry and see what else they can dig out. I'll also see if I can find out if the Liberty Lodge 3888 is still active.
Post by AndyJ »
Just to follow up on my last posting
Biographical history: The Liberty Lodge, No. 3888 was consecrated on the 18 January 1919. In 1919 the lodge met at the Masonic Hall, Hope Street, Liverpool. In 1994 the lodge left Hope Street and moved to Woolton Hall, Speke Road, Woolton, Liverpool. The lodge held its last meeting on the 22 November 2003 and was official erased by Grand Lodge on the 10 March 2004.
Post by AndyJ »
Just to update the thread and prevent any unnecessary work by anyone else, I have discovered that the National Archives have George Georgeopoulo's naturalisation certficate. It is dated 16 May 1922. The link is here: TNA . However as it is a document which has not been digitized I can't access it until TNA reopens to visitors. The entry confirms that he was previously of Greek nationality and that his given name was Georges Georgeopouls.
Post by AndyJ »
A further update based on some certificates which arrived today. Elizabeth's birth cert doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know, other than it was her mother Mary who registered the birth - hardly surprising. Date of birth confirmed as 29 November 1893, not 1894 as shown in 1939Reg.
Christy Jackson was born on 4th January 1915 when Elizabeth was living at 159 Grove Street. The mother's occupation is described as French governess 16 Rue de Jond, Tourcoing, France which seems bizarre since at that time the area was at the centre of fighting in the First World War. It is also the first time I have heard of her being a governess. No father is named on the cert. Christy survives for 3 months and his death on 21 April 1915 is registered in the name Christy Jackson otherwise Georgeopoulo. Once again Elizabeth's occupation is recorded as French governess at the same address in France. The cause of death was (i) Marasmus from malaccumilation of food (ii) syncope. Death reported by the mother who was residing at 59 Falkner St (which is adjacent to Grove Street).
Next come the birth and death of Nicholas. He was born on 25 February 1917 at 38 Perevil Street, Walton. The father's name is shown as George George whose profession is merchant's clerk. The mother is described as Elizabeth George formerly Jackson. Nicholas only lives for 4 days before dying of congenital heart disease, while at the same address, 38 Perevil Street. The birth and death are registered on the same day (1 Mar 1917) by E Gahan of 38 Perevil Street, present at both birth and death. E Gahan is Elizabeth's older sister Eliza and 38 Perevil Street is her home. Therefore I think that the use of the surname George may not have been a ruse after all, just a case of the sister not knowing George's actual surname. Why Elizabeth should have been at her sister's in Walton for the birth is another matter. Afterall this wasn't her first child. But maybe George was away and Elizabeth needed the support of her family. This might also explain why the father wasn't the one to report the birth and death.
Then lastly there is the death of Christina Maria Georgeopoulo on 16 June 1930 in the City Hospital East Mill Lane. She was 8 years old and died of diphtheria. The death was reported by the father Georgeopoulo of 12 The Elms, Dingle. I am still waiting for her birth certificate but I don't expect it to reveal anything startling other than that her father won't be named on it.
Post by Andy
Well, I was wrong. In my previous post I was sure that George would not be named as the father on Christina's birth certificate. He is and he was present along with the mother, recorded as Elizabeth Edmunds, at the registration. Both George and Elizabeth are recorded as living at 88 Princes Road which acccords with the inforrmation supplied by Bert earlier in the thread.The birth occurred on 29th December 1921 at 6 Albert Drive. The 1908 Ordnance Survey map shows that Albert Drive is the same one as today's Albert Drive in L9 not far from Orrel Park Station.
According to the 1939 Register, 3 of the occupants of 6 Albert Drive are listed as nurses, including one who is a maternity nurse, so perhaps after the tragic results following the births of Christy and Nicholas they were taking no chances with a home birth.
). I was looking up on Lancs OPC but he died in West Derby so no entry unfortunately. Father's name was James Cooper 1788-1839 and son was William Cooper married Sarah Maycox on 27th May 1845.
With a .pdf file
With a .pdf file unfortunately not, I have to ask why you didn't create a document rather than .pdf? We do have a "For Posterity" Board on our old forum where we keep a lot of collected transcriptions etc. and where it would be the best place to keep such valuable information.
Hi Mary, I created a the pdf
Hi Mary, I created a the pdf from a Word document because pdf files can be easily read on almost any device via a free program that takes up very little memory. While Adobe Reader has got bloated, there are alternatives, such as Sumatra Reader, that keep things simple.
I have your Forum Admin email address and can send the list in either format.
One of the reasons for not
One of the reasons for not uploading a .pdf file is that it isn't recognised or picked up by search engines. I'd be happy if you wished to post on our For Posterity Board, with a copy and paste from your Word doc.
(No subject)
Dutch terms have been added
Dutch terms have been added as suggested to the For Posterity Forum.
Thank you, transcripts of
Thank you, transcripts of headings we wouldn't normally understand eg from Dutch, will be appreciated by any needing them in the future.