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General Genealogy

Thomas and Beatrice Heyes baptised 1888

By lynne99 |
General Genealogy

These children of Roger Heyes and Alice Margaret Howard were baptised on the same day at St Alphonsus RC Church.  No date of birth is given.  The register   is marked "Sub- conditione"   I looked this up and it says baptised by the midwife.  There are no GRO records for these in 1888.  Could this be a baptism when they were older?  They did have a Thomas James Robert b 1879 baptised Rainford C of E and a Beatrice b 1884 no baptism found..  She may have died soon after her birth.  Please can anyone shed some light on these people.  Thanks  

GRO reg,

Thomas James Roger Heyes, 1878, Prescot

Beatrice Heyes, 1884, Prescot

Both, mmn, Howard.

1891 RG12 P3027 F64 P16

NameAgeRoger Heyes36Annie J Heyes26Thomas Heyes13Beatrice Heyes7Mary E Heyes7/12

Roger Heyes married Annie Jane Toole, 1888, West Derby

Death

Name:Beatrice HeyesEstimated Birth Year:abt 1884Registration Year:1894Registration Quarter:Apr-May-JunAge at Death:10Registration District:Prescot

Death, 1886

HEYES Alice 30 Ormskirk 8b548

 

Name:Mother's Maiden Surname: Toole
HEYES, MARY  EMMA,   GRO Reference: 1890  D Quarter in WEST DERBY  Volume 08B  Page 315

Catholic Baptism

Name:Maria Emma HayesGender:FemaleAge:0Birth Date:15 Sep 1890Baptism Date:24 Sep 1890Baptism Place:St John's, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Kirkdale,

Name:Thomas James Roger HeyesAge:79Record Type:BurialBirth Date:abt 1879Death Date:abt 1958Burial Date:14 Jun 1958Burial Place:Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Name:Thomas James Roger HayesBaptism Date:5 Jan 1879Parish:Rainford, Lancashire, England Father:Roger HayesMother:Alice Hayes

"Sub- conditione" 

Is also used if a previous baptism is unknown,

Example being if Alice had baptised Thomas C of E and after her death Roger baptised them in the Catholic church, claiming or otherwise he didn't know of any baptism.

Thanks Bertieone.  Glad you helped me on this one.  Never thought that after his 2nd marriage he would get them rebaptised into the catholic church.  

I think I read somewhere that "p"  might also mean poor, so didn't have to pay for the baptism.

Thanks 

Lynne

I think I read somewhere that "p"  might also mean poor, so didn't have to pay for the baptism.

If it was, nearly every baptism would have a "P" next to it, around that time.

Sorry I'm late to the party, had a bit of a busy day :)  It's quite common for a P for private to be noted against a child that may have been baptised by either a family member or "midwife" if they were poorly, they wouldn't let the child die without being blessed.  The subsequent church baptism would be a welcoming into the religion and naming ceremony.

It's also not uncommon for group baptisms to take place, the above could be one reason, ie getting the older one "done" at the same time as the next, but also there was probably a cost issue involved.

British American Tobacco 1920

By janeb |
General Genealogy

Does anyone know where the British American Tobacco factory was in the early 1920s and are there any employment records anywhere? My grandmother Elsie Radcliffe worked for them around 1924/5 when she married James Filson. I wondered what sort of job she would have done. 

If you google, British American Tobacco factory, Liverpool, info plus National Archives.

"BA" as it was known was one of the primary employers in Kirkdale, I'm sure you will get some of the history by googling as Bertieone has suggested, it was located on Commercial Road and I believe this was the building (I might be wrong and it might have been further along, building which is now gone, but I'm fairly sure that I'm right), now apartments. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4288923,-2.9874949,3a,75y,209.97h,95.33…

GRO records

By John O |
General Genealogy

Hi all, I'm trying to find the birth record on GRO for a Francis Yates. I can see him on FreeBMD as YATES Francis, registered Dec 1869, registration district St. Giles 1b 517.

I'm trying to find the mother's maiden name but for some reason the GRO site isn't working for me and crashed before and wonder if someone could take a look and see if they can find the record.

Many thanks, John

Thanks Bert, no wonder I couldn't find it. However, unfortunately not the correct person. Looking at marriage details from 1866 it appears that the mother's name wass Mary McGrath, but she was previously married to George Nicholson in 1866; he died somewhere between then and 1877 when she married Charles Yates (or Yeates) so Charles is stepfather to Francis or Frank, and the 1881 return states, born London c1870. The family were living in Everton in Norton Street.

Sorry for the confusion.

Why would he be registered as Yates if born c8 years before his mother married Charles Yates? Or am I reading the above incorrectly?

Alex,

Find thread "Thomas Yates, 1851 census"

Post 12.

Bertieone

 

Thanks. I have now read the earlier thread.

 

Alex

Thomas Yates 1851 census

By John O |
General Genealogy

Hi all, I am trying to trace Thomas Yates in the 1851 census. I have searched Ancestry without success. I don't have a subscription to Find My past at the moment, but searching his gives a date of birth of 1821 in Leigh, Lancashire, and that is where he was in 1851.

Spouse is I think either Mary Catherine or Catherine. He has a son Charles Yates born 1848 in Bedford, Leigh, Lancashire and I'm wondering if any kind soul has access and could they let me know if they can find them.

Many thanks, John

John,

Is this one a possible, Living in Bedford, Silk Weaver.

Thomas Yates28Mary Yates28Francis Yates5Joseph Yates2Ann Catterall23

HO107 P2204 F268 P35

 Above,As transcribed Ancestry,

Frances (Female) and Joseph, mmn Grundy

Thanks Bert, I have Thomas's occupation as joiner on his son Charles's wedding to Catherine Nicholson in 1877.  is that from 1851 return? I cannot find the family on the 1861 or 71 census either. 

Could this be the reason no Charles on census?

Death

 

YATES, CHARLES    0  GRO Reference: 1848  J Quarter in LEIGH UNION  Volume 21  Page 389

Hi, I do have Thomas Yate's spouse as Webb but no forename. I have this from Charle's birth off GRO, YATES, CHARLES. Mother WEBB. GRO Reference: 1848  M Quarter in LEIGH UNION  Volume 21  Page 532.

I also have him on the 1881 and 1891 census, born Bedford Leigh, Lancashire. 

To find his mother's forename, all you need to do is order a pdf of the certificate from the GRO, that will give the address, the forenames of both parents and the occupation of the father. It's well worth the small cost involved.

There is a marriage in Chorlton June Q 1843 for Thomas Yates and Mary Grundy Chorlton 20 130

There may be too many to be sure of which Mary Yates died, however there are a few that could be possible in the Leigh area.

Perhaps "Mrs" Webb came in to help with the youngsters and another came along.  In these circumstances an official union didn't always take place.

 

Marriage: 11 Jun 1843 St Mary the Virgin, Eccles, Lancashire, England
Thomas Yates - (X), minor, Weaver, Bachelor, Worsley
Mary Grundy - (X), of full age, Spinster, Worsley
    Bride's Father: James Grundy, Weaver
    Witness: James Cross; Thomas Gorse
    Married by Banns by: Willm. Marsden, Vicar
    Notes: [no name or occupation entered for the groom's father]
    Register: Marriages 1842 - 1843, Page 202, Entry 403
    Source: Manchester Central Library

Thanks for all the comments; I will order a copy of the birth certificate as suggested. I do not think the Thomas Yates/Mary Grundy is the correct marriage, due to 'my' Thomas being a joiner on Charlse's marriage certificate.and unlikely to change occupation, even though Eccles isn't a million miles away from Bedford, Leigh.

Will report back when I have the pdf.

Just following up on the above; I received my copy birth certificate for Charles but think I have the wrong one. This Charles did have a MMN of Webb and was born in Atherton in 1848.

I was looking at the 1881 census and there is a Charles Yates aged 44, born in 'Bedford Lee' Lancs, and his wife Catherine aged 34 and born in Ireland. They were living in Gordon Street and also had a daughter Ellen aged 8 and son Thomas aged 2. Charles was a labourer.

Fast forward to the 1891 census. Charles is aged 43, born 'Bedford Leigh' Lancashire and his wife Catherine is slso aged 43, born Ireland. Ellen is now 18 and Thomas 13. Charles is a dock labourer and they lived in Waterworks Street in Bootle. 

Looks like there was either a miscommunication about his age or he told porky pies in 1891. If the 1881 return was correct, then his birth would have been around 1837. GRO has 2 Chales Yates registered in Liverpool Q1 1838, no MMN against either.

 

John,

Starting with the 1881 census, Gordon St,

Charles Yate44Catherine Yate34Frank Yate11Ellen Yate8Thomas Yate2Charles Yate1Thomas Nicholson15

 

Frank Yates who we previously found registered female, GRO, but spelt, Francis, mmn Gold.

 

We know Charles Yeates married Catherine Nicholson, 1877 Liverpool, Widower, Father, Thomas, Joiner.

 

I think the above child Francis Yates was from his previous marriage to, Mary Ann Golding, 1859, Liverpool, at this marriage he is also a Widower, father, Thomas, Joiner.

 

Another marriage prior to him marrying Mary Ann Golding worth looking into is, Charles Yates/Elizabeth Tonge, 1854, Manchester. Father Thomas, Joiner.

1871, St Giles in the field

Rg10 P349 F80 P58

Charles Yates30Head, Wigan,Mary Ann Yates28Wife, Liverpool,Jane Yates8Daughter, Manchester,Anne Yates5Daughter, Manchester,Francis Yates1Son, Middlesex.

The 2 girls above born Manchester could be the link to the marriage to Elizabeth Tonge, Manchester, not her children but where he was residing at the time.

If so and the same Charles Yates, that marriage gives a birth date 1833/34.

Some possibles,

Mary Ann Yates, 1855, Manchester, mmn, Tonge.

Mary Ann Yates, Death, 1856, Manchester, aged 1.

Elizabeth Yates, Death, 1857, Manchester, aged 22. Which would make her a minor as recorded, 1854 marriage.

I know the places of birth bounce around a bit, another worth checking,

As Transcribed, Anc.

 

Thomas Yales50, JOINER,Ellen Yales51John Yales19Charles Yales17Richard Yales12Mary Ann Yales10

HO107 P2205, F26 P17

Ellen, on the 1881 census,

 

YATES, ELLEN    mmn GOLDRING  GRO Reference: 1872  M Quarter in ST GILES  Volume 01B  Page 582

Hi Bert, many thanks as ever for taking the time to research and respond. I had a look at the Thomas Yates/Ellen marriage and found this. No occupation unfortunately:

Marriage: 22 Nov 1826 All Saints, Hindley, Lancashire, England
Thomas Yates - Batchelor, Wigan Parish
Ellen Bolton - Spinster, Hindley, Wigan Parish
Witness: Mary Yates; Catherine Bolton; Saml. Yates; James Yates; John Walls.

Another Ancestry member has the same relationship with a son John b1832.

The 1851 return for the 'Yales' family looks promising. I have also looked at a few birth records for Mary Ann, and there is a birth in 1841 but the father Thomas is a colliery worker, and in another census return I have found is a colliery sinker. There seem to be a few Yates families in that area. I am going with if he stated he is a joiner then that is what he would probably stick to.

I will spend some time reviewing all these, the Yates family are my wife's direct ancestors so I need to get it right smiley.

I wonder if this is the 1841 census following the Yates/Bolton marriage

Liverpool, HO107 P559 Book14

Thomas Yates is an Iron Founder,

Thomas Yates40Ellen Yates35Caroline Yates10Juliana Yates9Emma Yates3Catherine Carle20Ellen Boulton75

Ellen Yates is not on the 1851 census, there is an Ellen Yates buried in Wigan, 1848, address, Liverpool.

Name:Ellen YatesAge:45Birth Year:abt 1803Burial Date:9 Jun 1848Burial Place:Wigan, All Saints, Lancashire, EnglandParish as it Appears:Wigan

John,

If you look at the last 4 children on this 1841 census, HO107 P513 Book8, they correspond with the children on the 1851, Thomas Yales census posted earlier.

James Yates on the 1841 census is living next door to Thomas on the 1851, along with his wife and children.

 

As Transcribed, Anc.

Thomas Gutes40Ellen Gutes40Rachel Hilton60James Yates15Thomas Yates14Peter Yates12John Yates10Charles Yates8Richard Yates3Mary Ann Yates4 MoPeter Yates60

 

James Yates married Margaret Guest, 1845, 

I thought because of James birth year, this marriage was a possible,

 

Marriage: 27 Aug 1820 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Thomas Yates - (X), Wigan Parish
Ellen Heys - (X), Wigan Parish
    Witness: Thomas Hayes; Saml. Vizard
    Married by Banns by: Edwd. Hill, Curate

 

Also backed up with this birth below,

 

Trying to find who Rachel Hilton was, 1841 census, a family connection below, note same witness, Samuel Whittle, as James marriage, 1845, and another Taylor surname.

Hi Bert, thank you for your efforts, you are a scholar and a gentleman.

You have certainly given me some food for thought. I also found another tree on Ancestry with the Yates family in it. I remembered that I had messaged the owner of the site back in 2018 but unfortunately he has never responded.

He has Thomas Yates, b1801 with two marriages:

Ellen Bolton on 22nd November 1826 in Wigan. Lancashire, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936 has a copy record but no occupation. Both are unmarried at the time. Ellen died April 1857 in Leigh.

Alice Hampson in April 1858 at Leigh. Taken from England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index, 1837-1915. Alice died in January 1877 in Leigh. No death date for Thomas.

The tree only has the one son, Charles Yates b1834 which ties in with your comments above. Charles had three marriages according to this tree:

Elizabeth Tonge on 2nd April 1854 at Manchester cathedral. Charles is 20, Elizabeth 19. Both living in Collier's Row, Gaythorn. Father is Thomas Yates, joiner. Manchester, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1930 (Cathedral) has a copy certificate. No death date for Elizabeth.

Mary Ann Goulding on 19th June 1859. England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973 has father as Thomas Yates, no occupation stated. In 1871 he is living in St Giles in the Field, London. He is a bricklayer's labourer and Mary Ann is still living and with 3 children. No death date for Mary Ann.

Katharine McGrath (Nicholson) on 11th February 1877 in St Simon's Liverpool. Liverpool, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921 has a copy certificate which we have seen previously with Charles as a labourer and father Thomas Yeates (sic) joiner. No death record on this tree for Katharine or Charles.

Only spanner in the works is the record you have for Thomas marrying Ellen Hays in 1820. Also, the birth snip for Richard in Sep 1838 with Heyes as the mmn. Mary Ann Mar 1841 also has mmn Heyes. Charles being born c1837 might not be late enough to be recorded on GRO as I can't see a match for mmn Heyes or similar.

The marriage in your snip above between Thomas and Ellen Heys has another Thomas Yates as a witness, possibly the father. In the Ancestry tree, the father is Peter Yates and mother Mary Whittle, this coming from the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 record. For some reason on this tree the mother's name is shown as Private, because her status is still 'living'. I will try and message the tree owner again and see if I get a response this time. He also has my mother in law as still living, although she passed away a couple of years ago so I will give him the date which may encourage some dialogue. 

Great work though Bert, thanks so far to you, Shelagh and Mary for the assistance.

 

 

 

Me again, having fun looking through Ancestry trees to see who has who down as being related. 

The first tree I looked at had Thomas Yates b1801 married to Ellen Bolton. Interestingly, the next tree had Thomas marrying Ellen Hays, which fits in with Bert's birth records and mmn of Heyes for Mary Ann Yates in 1838. Bert also mentioned the surname Whittle being a witness to a marriage. More interesting is that the later tree had the father of Thomas Yates as Peter Yates, married to Mary Whittle. Possibly the marriage of Richard Yates and Martha Hilton in 1820, as per Bert's snip, with Samuel Whittle as witness, could be one of Mary Whittle's brothers (she was born 1782) or possibly one of her brother's sons?

Only issue is this tree has Charles Yates as being born in 1829 in St Helen's rather than 1833/4 as per Bert's thoughts or 1837 as I have it.

I did message the owner of the first tree but according to Ancestry, he last signed in over a month ago.

 

 

John,

I always think, the younger they are, the more accurate their ages are. If you look for a Charles Yates born 1835+/-2 and a father Thomas, Joiner. If I remember correctly, Thomas Yale, 1851 was the only one that fitted in the area of interest. Getting back to 1841, what are the chances of the last 4 children on the 1851 matching the last 4 children on the 1841 with parents Thomas and Ellen, the last 2 falling within registration and both MMN, Heys. If you agree Charles was married 3 times, the first marriage at his youngest gives a birth date 1833/34, again I think more likely accurate than the 1877 marriage. Along with other clues, I think Yates/Hays marriage.

Thanks again for the response Bert. I agree that the Yates/Hays marriage is correct together with the '41 and '51census returns. I am working back from my wife's great grandfather Charles Yates, who was born according to the 1939 register on 10th Feb 1880. This ties in with the GRO record of Q1 1880 and mmn McGrath and I know most of his life onwards. The 1881, '91 and '01 records tie in with the other family members and then after his marriage in 1903 census and electoral register entries etc. 

I think for proof I will do as Shelagh suggested and get another GRO certificate, this time for Charles' birth in 1880 to make sure his mother was Mary Catherine McGrath. One of the confusions is that the 1877 Nicholson/Mcgrath wedding to Charles Yates in 1877 has her name as Catherine and not Mary Catherine. If I can get the details of Charles' father then I can look to get proof of the parents and work back. 

Thanks, John

Just an update on my previous posts. I have received my copy certificates which looking at the birth cert of Charles Yates b10 Feb 1880 does prove that Charles Yates was married to Catherine Yates, late Nicholson formerly McGrath. The marriage cert of Charles to his wife Annie Elizabeth Sennett tallies with the father's name and occupation. Getting the line sorted slowly. 

Thanks to everyone for their kind help.

My Harrison family. c 1800 to 1850

By lynne99 |
General Genealogy

Hi, I have a mix up with this family.  My 3 x Great grandfather was Thomas Harrison b Oct 1771 Liverpool and his wife Ellen Prescot b 1768 in Kirkby.  I have their marriage in 1792 at St Mary in Walton (or a chapel of it ).  I know of 10 children, but the first 2 I have no details of.  apart from their names and dob  They are Elizabeth 1793 and margaret 1795.

There is one other problem, their son,  James harrison b c 1806  (Lancs OPC).  On the 1841 census, Thomas and Ellen are living in Eaton St (off Vauxhall Rd) with James Harrison aged 38 and Eliz aged 14, Ed aged 10 and Jane aged 6  All born in county.  Next door but 1 to them is my great x 2 grand parents Rd and Mary and their family.  Piece:557 Book:13 Folio:34 Page Number:23

I presumed (not a good thing to do) that the James with Thomas and Ellen was their son and the children their grandchildren..  I can only find 1 marriage and no births for the 3 children.  The marriage was 7 Oct 1822 to Elizabeth Joynson , but she is on the 1841 census , in Liverpool, West Derby, with her family  Piece:568 Book:22 Folio:65 Page Number:14 (Lower Granby St on back??)

My James cannot be in 2 places at once.  I have 2 DNA matches that have this marriage for James Harrison. s/o Thomas and Ellen.  The surname Joynson has been carried forward as a middle name.   I think there must be some connection, but I know not what.

Please can skp help me past this muddle.  Thanks in anticipation     Lynne

Sorry Lynne,

I'll file this under Failed miserably, I hope others do better for you.

I too have been looking around without success.  

My James cannot be in 2 places at once. 

I beg to differ, so many errors have been made, perhaps he was staying with a friend/relative on the night in question and was correctly enumerated there, but also at home where he might have been expected to be.

I believe it was quite rare for children not to be baptised into a parish - they might have called for Parish Relief at some point so it would have been necessary for the baptism to have welcomed them into the Parish, so I'm imagining that they might have taken place in a church that has not been digitised.  Might be a good idea to use genuki and try to identify a short list of churches that they might have used, even while moving around, and double check whether those registers are online, if not check with the library catalogue where they should be listed but only available in the Archives perhaps?

Again whether are  there any Parish documents available  for the close Parishes, these might include any requests for Parish Relief, etc.

Not so straightforward with a fairly common surname, but perhaps check for any Wills, not just for those people you are aware of, but also any that might be relatives and so might have mentioned your direct ancestors, when I didn't think there was a Will, just reading one solved a major problem in my research, all avenues you know .....

Prior to 1858 https://user.xmission.com/~nelsonb/lws.htm

Thanks Mary, I will look at the things you mentioned.  On the 1841 census the James with Thomas and Ellen was a labourer  and the other one a Tallow Chandler.  Was that a posh job?  

Bertieone ...  that cannot be the case , but thanks for trying.

Tallow chandler sells candles, possibly makes them also.  The occupation could encompass other activities but they don't come to mind.

Looked for wills and found none .  Never mind hey.  James was on 1881 census (I think) In Grafton Street,  Wife Elizabeth and job  engine driver. Birth 1799 not 1806.  If this is him, I have his death the following year burried Anfield.  The only other census that I find suitable is 1851 as an unmarried, Night soilman , lodger in Paul Street.    The supposed marriage to Elizabeth Joynson was in 1822.  So not sure this is him.  Can't find any 1861 or 71 census suitable.  

If I could use your eyes to help with census and deaths that would be great.  Thanks 

 

Lynne,

The 1881 census and burial you mention, Helen or Ellen on the census died in 1917 and is buried in the same grave as James, Anfield, 3 137.

Margaret Coffee also on the 1881 census is mentioned in Helen's probate, Margaret Joynson Coffee, a connection to Elizabeth Joynson?

1871, Back Grafton St, Engineer?

Name:James HarrisonAge:72Estimated Birth Year:1799Relation:HeadGender:MaleWhere born:LiverpoolCivil parish:ToxtethEcclesiastical parish:St ThomasTown:LiverpoolCounty/Island:LancashireCountry:EnglandRegistration district:West DerbySub-registration district:Toxteth ParkED, institution, or vessel:25Household schedule number:304Piece:3798Folio:31Page number:55

1861, RG9 P2702 F29 P55, Engine? Grafton St.

 

NameAgeJames Harrison62Elizabeth Harrison58Ellen Harrison33Ann Harrison21Mary J Harrison18Joseph J Harrison28Isabella Harrison20

Molyneux of Garston /Woolton. Flour dealers. 

By vc |
General Genealogy

 

Hello, I am trying to find out more about Roman Catholic Thomas Molyneux of
Garston who was born circa 1760. He married Maria Appleton circa 1782, their
first child being born 178s and baptised at St Mary's RC Woolton. The baptism confirmed the mother's name.

They had a
son Carol [Caryll] Molyneux born in 1803 who was a flour dealer in Liverpool.
I need to find the marriage of Thomas and Maria Appleton but I fear it falls
in a period when the marriage register has not survived, although they should
have also had a C of E marriage but I cannot find one. Ultimately I need to
find the parents of Thomas. I wonder if he was also a flour dealer but I do
not have access to any trade directories for the period 1780 - 1826. I
believe, but not proven, that he is buried at Garston St Michael 23 Aug 1826.
Any help would be much appreciated.

I'm sorry that we haven't had any luck with our searches for these two names in a marriage.  It might be worthwhile approaching the Liverpool Record Office and asking what they might have on microfilm or in the archives for Woolton at this date.  https://liverpool.gov.uk/libraries/archives-family-history/family-histo…

I would suggest that you don't get fixed on the Roman Catholic aspect of things, it might be that one or other of the parents were of that persuasion, but when it came to a marriage they may have gone along with the other.

I wonder if he was also a flour dealer but I do
not have access to any trade directories for the period 1780 - 1826. 

I believe I have already sent you entries for the directories of that period, however for Woolton that is really outside the Liverpool district and you should perhaps approach a more local library to see whether they hold more specific records. 

Mystery woman’s birth location

By W1034910 |
General Genealogy

Please can anyone help. I’ve been looking into this for over a year to no avail. I want to find out where my Great Grandmother was born. There’s limited info about her but here’s what I’ve found.
 
Adela D’Angelia born 30/07/1891 (location unknown)
Married Peter Robinson 1915 (Liverpool)
Took the name Adela Robinson 
Adela became a Widow in 1918 Peter was killed in WW1.
Adela Robinson Died 24 Dec 1953 (Liverpool) 
Adela had 3 children, Lena (Peter is her father)
Harry & Arthur (father unknown)
My grandfather is Harry Robinson born 1921
And my father is Harry Alan Robinson born 12 Feb 1948. I am Katherine Robinson. Ironically Adela kept the Robinson name hence my surname. Peter Robinson was not my great grandfather as he was killed before my grandfather was born. Adela lived at 48 Pecksniff St, Liverpool. It's where Adela was born, that is the mystery. 

 

 

Hi Katherine welcome to the Forum. I'm  on Ancestry at mo and starting a tree for her. Need to establish a bit of background first.

 

Hi and welcome, you have an exact date of birth, is that from her death entry or from the 1939 Register?

You haven't mentioned any censuses yet she should be found in 1901 and 1911, where does she give for a birthplace on there?

Have you checked Workhouse Records to see if she was placed there? or school records?

Hello, I think I got her birth date off the 1939 census.  Census wise I have only found her on the 1921 and onwards up to her death in the 50's. She remained at 48 Pecksniff street, and is buried at Toxteth cemetery. I ordered her death certificate a couple of weeks ago, still waiting for it to arrive. I can't find her on workhouse records and I've not looked into schools yet. The first document I found her on was the marriage certificate.

Antonio D'angeli Married Sophie Müller in 1890 Liverpool Lancashire volume 8b page 29

Antonio D'angeli died 1894 Lancashire 8b page 280

Sophie remarried 8th April 1897 Harry Haller 

 

Think I've found her

1901 census 

Piece:3428Folio:77Page Number:10Household Schedule Number:63

Harry Haller, Sophia Haller and Adela Haller

If Adela was Harry's child she'd be about 3/4 in 1901 as they married in 1897.....Sophie was a widow.

Adela was born in Liverpool 1891 

 

 

 

 

This looks very promising, and lots of new avenues to look at. The name D'Angelia on Adela's marriage certificate didn't make my search any easier. I still don't understand why there's no birth record of Adela. Thanks and I can't wait to look into this.

.

Peter Robinson died 21 Mar 1918 • France and Flanders

Service Number 119587. Machine Gun Corps  Formerly 203714, Border Regt.  

I can't find Service Documents to see if there's any information on Adela 

I've seen Peter's Medal card and Adela's war widow pension paperwork, apart from confirming her marriage to Peter there's no other information. Thanks Sue and to everyone else for this information.
I have some more information to go on which is great. 

1891, Name:Sofia AngeliGender:FemaleAge:30Relationship:WifeBirth Year:1861Spouse:Antonio D AngeliBirth Place:GermanyCivil Parish:LiverpoolEcclesiastical parish:St NicholasResidence Place:Liverpool, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Sophia was born in Germany and may not have known about birth registration, you may have to look towards the Liverpool, German church for baptism.

Hello Bert, thanks for looking into this. Just to confirm: Although there's no sign of a record, it's likely that Adela was born in Liverpool. Her parents are Sophie, who was possibly born in Germany and Antonio. Does it state where Antonio was born?

 

Antonio was born in Italy, I know Adela was born here but may have received a Baptism in a German Church in Liverpool.

Should say, if indeed they had one?

Census wise I have only found her on the 1921 and onwards 

Wow I wake up and they have almost done.  Just joking with you but if you have found Adela on the 1921 census, who have you bribed to see that since it's only available to the rest of us from next January laugh 

You can email the Liverpool Record Office although you can't visit at present, they may be able to look up the records for the German congregation they hold.  https://liverpool.gov.uk/libraries/archives-family-history/liverpool-ar…

Ha ha, my mistake it must have been the 1939. I've searched through so many documents and gone down so many rabbit holes. It's difficult to reference the right document. I'm new to all of this research but this thread has been great. 
Many thanks to everyone who has looked into this, it's a great help.

As transcribed, Ancestry,

1911,

Name:Sopie HallarRelation to Head:WifeGender:FemaleBirth Place:Breman, Address:10 Croston Off Dale St LiverpoolMarital status:MarriedOccupation:7/6 Allowance From Harstam Pr Welk

Possibly, Adela, 1911, as transcribed, Ancestry.

 

Name:Ada HallerAge in 1911:19Estimated Birth Year:abt 1892Relation to Head:BoarderGender:FemaleBirth Place:Berttenhead, Cheshire, EnglandCivil Address:4 St Judes Place (south)Marital status:SingleOccupation:Tailoress

Van Driquelle

By renkingert |
General Genealogy

Thanks, that I could become a member of the forum.

I'm searching for Anna Maria (Ann Mary) Van Driquelle. She is born in Mechelen (26 November 1825) as Maria Ludovica (Mary Louise) Van Driquelle.

According to the Population Indexes of the city of Antwerp she moved to Liverpool with her niece Maria Rosalia & daughter Theodorine Gemine.

She has no husband.

She arrived in 1850 in the port of London (see picture attached).

Can someone give some info on consultable (online) sources that I could you use to find more information about the family?

It is a certainty that she can't be find under her family name as written here.

A phonetic search is more plausible.

Greetings,

Gert

Hi and welcome.  I'm sure some of us will be trying out searches for you, particularly perhaps the 1851 census, do you have the date from the Population Indexes of Antwerp, of the date she came to Liverpool, or does that coincide with her arrival to London?  Sorry that was a silly question, of course it does.

How about ages? do you have their approximate dates of birth?  Would there have been a reason the came to Liverpool, perhaps there was already family here? 

The possibility is that they came for an onward journey to the USA.

Have you checked the National Archives for a change of name or naturalisation?  https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Hi,

For your information:

Mary Louise is °Mechelen, 26 November 1825; Théodorine Gemine is °Mechelen, 19 january 1846; Mary Rose is °Mechelen, 05 July 1844.

Both Mary Louise and Mary Rose came back to Belgium.

Mary Rose was married to Giovanni Sigante op 6 April 1861 Sunderland.

No other information was found concerning Theodorine Gemine.

There isn't any prove that they had relatives in Liverpool.

Neither is there any information indicating why they moved.

Thanks for all the help.

Giovanni Sigante married Marie Rosalie Kuwert in Sunderland, 1861. The only other time the name Kuwert appears in the UK records,1840-1910 Free BMD, is Charles H Kuwert who married Maria Van Riekel, Liverpool, 1850.

Do you know of any connection? What was Marie Rosalie's father's name?

The following 2 images could be the reason for arriving in London, 28 Feb, 1850, and moving on to Liverpool to attend a wedding, 10 March, 1850.

.

Elizabeth Lawrinson - born 1807 or 1812?

By Gwebb1 |
General Genealogy

As many of you will know (Bert!), my Elizabeth Lawrinson married William Gordon in Liverpool in 1827 but her birth has eluded me.  I recently came to the conclusion she had been born in Warrington in 1807 and that her parents were John Lawrinson and Margaret Clarke.  D.o.b tallied with death certificate and census dates but It didn't explain why the 1851 census says she was born in Upholland and who Sarah Lawrinson (married name Martindale) was who reported her death in 1858.

A look at her burial record, howver, has given me more doubts as this says her parents were William and Margaret!  The widowed Margaret was living with Sarah Martindale on the 1841 census and when she died in 1848 but William and Margaret do not appear to have had a daughter called Sarah and thier daughter called Elizabeth was born in 1812 which means that, if this was my Elizabeth, she would have been 15 years old when she married the 25 year old mariner called William Gordon!  Is this a likely scenario?  Still doesn't solve the Upholland puzzle  and and 1812 doesn't match with Elizabeth's death certificate or census entries.

Just so I don't waste people's time: I know William was a tailor, that he probably (incorrect name recorded) married Margaret Johnson in 1795 and that they had 6 children between 1797 and 1812 (Elizabeth appears to have been their last child - significant?).  My last reference for William is in the 1829 Gore's Directory when he was a tailor at 59 Rose Place.

Can anyone see a way to resolve my dilemma?  As always, any ideas would be much appreciated.

Glen

It is possible a 15 year old married, however, Margaret who is living with Sarah, 1841 census, is recorded as 80 years old.

Rounding down, could be 84. I know being pedantic with ages on census forms is not always the correct way to proceed, but if correct Margaret would have been around 51 ish in 1812 when having Elizabeth, not impossible but unlikely. An earlier birth is more likely, both Sarah and Elizabeth declare Up Holland as place of birth, is it possible their church of baptism is yet to come online or not received one?

I'm assuming you have checked Online Parish Clerk which says

Transcribing of Up Holland records is now underway with primary attention being paid to records that are not available anywhere else. See the Resources link for further details. Burials from 1619 are a key priority.

https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Upholland/stthomas/index.html

Having said that they do appear to have Baptisms transcribed for the time in question, however no Elizabeths.  Maybe you could think a little further out, if the mother originated in say Wigan or even Ormskirk, she may have gone home for the birth and perhaps also the baptism.

Sorry, Mary - your post came through while I was typing mine!  Yes, I have checked the link you mention several times over the years of trying to unravel this knot of a problem but without any luck so far.  Good news more are going on-line though, especially as we can't investigate anything in person yet!

As I say in my last post, it is the burial record that states William and Margaret were Elizabeth's parents that really puzzles me as prior to seeing this document I had assumed Sarah and Elizabeth were related to W and M but not their daughters.

G.

Yes - I know what you mean about the dates.  Margaret died in 1848 and the death certifcate says she was 90, giving her a d.o.b. of 1758.  One of her children's baptism records says her father was Thomas Johnson and the birth of the Margaret Johnson baptised in Tarleton Chapel, father Thomas, was 1765 - another bit of inconsistency but could mean Margaret was 47 when Elizabeth was born, which is perhaps more likely than 51.

William and Margaret's children were born 1797, 1799, 1801, 1802, 1810 (son who died same year as he was born) and then Elizabeth in 1812 so there was quite a gap before the last 2.  All baptism records say William was a tailor and all children were baptised at St Nicholas's.  I have followed up the 1st 3 children and am convinced I am looking at the right William and Margaret for Sarah (witnesses at each other's weddings etc) and so presumeably for Elizabeth.

Problem is that if William and Margaret had 2 more children between 1802 and 1810, perhaps in Upholland, why would they call a subsequent daughter Elizabeth when an older one was still alive?  As you say, Bert, perhaps the baptisms for Elizabeth and Sarah were not recorded for some reason or I have just not found them yet but there must be some link with Elizabeth and Sarah and tailor William and Margaret from Liverpool that I am not seeing.

Glen

Don't forget the other possibility of the grandparents bringing up the child as their own.  It would explain why two Elizabeths.

Hi all.  I've continued to look at this line for the last week and I am coming to the idea that Elizabeth was indeed born about 1806/7 rather than in 1812.  The earlier date would be consistent with her death certificate and census records and given that her eldest sister was born in 1797 and did not marry until 1818, the Elizabeth born in 1812 could well have been William and Margaret's grandchild born out of wedlock as mary suggested.

I also found a baptism record for a William Birch, who was the son of Elizabeth's sister, Mary Ann.  This child was baptised in Upholland in 1825 although the baptism record shows the family was still living in Liverpool and I am thinking that something similar coulld have happened when Elizabeth and Sarah were baptised - they were taken to Upholland for the ceremony for some reason rather than actually being brought up there.  There is also a gap in the timeline between when Mary Ann was born in 1802 and when Elizabeth's brother was born in 1810 and the births of Elizabeth and Sarah would fill this gap.  I still cannot find the ecords though!

Several of the Liverpool Lawrinsons seem to have been buried in Walton-on-the -Hil Cemetery.  Is there any way I can see the burial records for this cemetery online so I could check if any were buried in the same grave?

C.

Is there any way I can see the burial records for this cemetery online so I could check if any were buried in the same grave?

Give me names and dates and I have a copy of some burial records which I'll check for you/

There is only a rough book and there are no instructions.  On the index page Lawrinson has a 9 beside the name, however as to whether "9" is the page it's on or the Grave Number I can't tell, but the entry for the two of them is indeed on Page 9, which could be just coincidence that there is also a Grave number 9.

Brilliant find, Mary!  I had been wondering if the Wm Lawrinson who died in 1832 was Margaret's husband as he had been a tailor and I couldn't find him in the Trade Directories after 1829.  The 1832 death would give a d.o.b of about 1770 and I was wondering if the May1773 birth in W. Derby is the correct one.  His parents would have been George and Ellen  and Wm and Margaret called at least one of their daughters Ellen.

After Bert so cleverly tracked down the marriage between Wm and Margaret in 1795 even though the surname was recorded as 'Rawlinson', I found a record announcing the banns (surname still spelt incorrectly) and this states that at the time of his marriage Wm was resident in Low Hill and that he had been 'resident there all his life'.   Incidently, the record also says Margaret had been resident in Low Hill 'these 3 months past, which fits in with her having come from Tarleton.

Would West Derby and Low Hill correlate?

Other people who were buried in Walton are the married daughters of Wm and Margaret: Mary Ann Birch (died 1838); Jane Houghton  (died 1869) and possibly Ellen Birch (died abt 1860) and Sarah Martindale, who I think might have died in 1863 but whose husband was buried at Anfield in 1865.

Thanks for your help as always, folks.

G

Yes Low Hill is on the edge of West Derby, I would class them as the same place.  Be back when I've checked out the other names, I'm assuming these are the names they would have died under, not maiden names for the ladies. 

Looking for the name Birch, index says "9", so I looked back at Page 9 which is the clip in my post #9 - no Birches on the page, so it does make me think it might be Grave Number 9, still can't promise, however I realised I had clipped too small and have redone it.  I have no idea if EVE ELLEN is connected with the Lawrinsons.  I'm sorry but these books have no sort of explanation.  

Looking for Jane Houghton has clarified that the number beside the name in the index is actually the page number, and it doesn't relate to the grave number.

Unfortunately no Jane Houghton's in the list.

The only Birch, possibly your Mary Ann's child, I've clipped the image just enough to show who was above in the ledger, can't tell if there might be any connection with the baby.

 

Happy Easter, everyone.  Thanks again, Mary, for your input on this one - it really is much appreciated.  Do the texts you are looking at have an official name (e.g. Sexton's Records) and does this cemetery still exist?

I was a bit confused though by what you say in post 14. How did looking for Jane Houghton clarify that the number beside names in the index refers to a page number and not a grave if Jane Houghton was not in the record?  Also, is the 'baby of Mary Ann' the Birch entry you saw in the index with a 9 by it?  Sorry if I'm being dense - perhaps I have had too much/too little wine and choc!

G

First off I looked for Jane Houghton, not finding her but finding other Houghtons gave me numbers in the index and I found them on those pages.

This church, St Marys Walton on the Hill, does indeed still exist and was the main Parish Church for Walton and the surrounding areas before Liverpool was built up.  There are graves in various "compounds" around the church however they are not easy to find, being very overgrown and in some cases damaged.

The book I have is a copy of a rough book, very old, which somebody in the Parish obviously attempted to compile at some time before my living memory.  I don't think they were ever official records.  This book is available at the Liverpool Archives where I must have scanned it.  There is no title page on the book, unless I inadvertently missed it, however I have a page near the end that might give some information.

St Mary's Church, Walton

Report by G.F. Roach

1. I visited the church on 2nd March 1973 and had a discussion with the Rector

2. I was supplied with copies of

  • (a) Plan of the Scheme
  • (b) List of Monumental Inscriptions
  • (c) Recommendations of Headstones to be retained.

3. A study of the M.I.'s shows that the selection under (c) above has been carefully made and that a good representation would be given by this retention: I therefore agree with the proposals of the Rector.

4. I have reservations about the method of recording the M.I.'s.  I understand that this was done by staff of the Liverpool Authority.  One must accept the list at this stage, but I should like to speak to them at the next meeting of the Committee.

5. I recommend that copies of the list of M.I.'s are lodged at :-

  1. The Church
  2. The Diocese
  3. Liverpool Picton Library.  Local History Section (Liv. Rec. Office)
  4. Lancashire Record Office, Preston
  5. Library of the Society of Genealogists, London

G,R.

So sorry, I can tell you no more, and unless you go through the minutes of any Committee Meetings at about that time, I am not sure whether you will find more.  I don't know who G.F. Roach is.

Fascinating details.  We met a guy once at Anfield Cemetery who had saved a load of old burial books from being burnt and he was a mine of information - perhaps he was doing something similar to G.F. Roach.

I'm getting a bit confused by the Cemetery names.  From what you say, Mary, could a record show someone as been buried in Walton-on-the-Hill but but they would not in be in St Mary's?

Also, this bit of my research began when I was following up the death of Elizabeth Lawrinson/Gordon, who was buried in St Mary's Cemetery - is that the same Cemetery as Wm and Margaret are buried in? 

G.

Unfortunately there are a few St Mary's although the one in Kirkdale I don't believe had a graveyard so should be able to be discounted.

I think the one up Brownlow Hill where a lot of burials from the Workhouse took place was also I believe St Marys.

But if you are talking about St Marys, Walton on the Hill then this is the one we are talking about.

We met a guy once at Anfield Cemetery who had saved a load of old burial books from being burnt

These burial books are now the ones I believe I have in my possession.  Some have been indexed by Kathy (Katie as she was known on the old forum) and many waiting for the same, we have volunteers to do this but they need taking around and giving out, just not possible at present, also needing to be scanned and the only place I know with a large enough scanner is the Liverpool Record Office.  Still a difficult job since the stack of them are approximately two foot six - three foot high. 

What a small world!  The guy my husband and I met lived not too far from the cemetery.  We had only approached him to enquire about how to find a particular section of the cemetery and ended up going back to his house where we spent the afternoon and he looked up all sorts of things for us.  He was a mine of information and seemed to have his very own reference library -  a bit like you seem to have!

G

Sounds like the same guy, he is getting on a bit now and wanted the records looked after.  What a palaver we had (a friend and I) trying to get these down from the landing upstairs, but hopefully at some point when they are dealt with we hope the Record Office will look after them.

learn more about my ancestors

By steviebyday |
General Genealogy

ok just watched D N A on the tv, how do they gather so much information on individuel members,

of families,where do they search.

Just moved your post into general genealogy so that it gets more attention.

If it was the programme with Freddie Flintoff and Jamie Redknapp, both of these would have taken a DNA test, I believe I heard Ancestry mentioned, this has the largest database for matching an individual with others so a large number of family relatives would have been listed as having matching DNA.  These would then need to be investigated and a probable family tree created, researched forward from a common ancestor, until living relatives were traced.  It's a variation on the document based research that we have always advocated, and which needs to back up any DNA results.

If this isn't what you need, sorry but please ask again.

Thinking about it, I'm now suspecting that you mean the earlier ancestors.  Newspapers are always very useful - join the Lancashire Library, Bow Lane, Preston (online is fine) and with your library card number you can access their ditigal newspaper archive, which is online up to 1900.

Court records etc. are also very useful, even the Old Bailey has their records online.  https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/

I'm sure for many of their sources there would have been money thrown at them for subscriptions.

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