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General Genealogy

The Dennison-Johnson saga revisited : an update

By Martin-46 |
General Genealogy

Some members may recall the lengthy series of posts beginning last Christmas Eve that focused on discovering the past of my grandfather John Fleming Denison Johnson who was born in Liverpool in 1891 but after marrying and producing four children mysteriously ‘disappeared’ in the mid-1920s.  He died in Liverpool in 1973.

I now have some intriguing updates to add – and a couple of requests for more help.

[For any members who find my comments below interesting - but confusing – the original thread was called ‘Was he Dennison or Johnson?’ and runs for 9 forum pages.  However, I have also written the whole story out in narrative form as a Word document which may make easier reading and I’m happy to email this to anyone who wishes.  Beware, it runs to 40+ pages including all appendices.]

My grandfather’s 1891 birth certificate recorded his mother as Sarah Dennison and his given names as John Fleming.  However, his father’s name was not recorded.

The questions needing answers a few months ago were: who was his father, how did he acquire the surname Johnson, and what happened to him in later life?

Several members, notably Bertieone, MaryA, AndyJ and SuffolkSandry97 contributed to uncovering some fascinating details about my grandfather’s origins and later life.

The search began with a Sarah Dennison, the daughter of Irish immigrants living in the squalid Courts of the Liverpool docklands in the late 19th century.  This proved a false trail but further research using Ancestry and other sources coupled with Bertieone’s intuition identified my grandfather’s likely mother as Sarah Ann Dennison born in Leeds in 1865, the daughter of a Jonathan Dennison.  At the time of her son’s birth Sarah Dennison was living in Prescot Road, seemingly unmarried, next door to a certain John Fleming.  This led to the suspicion that she had named my grandfather John Fleming because her neighbour was in fact his father.

The 1901 census recorded a John Johnson, aged 9, living with one of Sarah Dennison’s sisters, Elizabeth Mary and her husband Walter Taylor and described as their nephew.  Also living in the household was a mysterious Lillian Johnson, a widow, possibly John Johnson’s mother.  However, Elizabeth didn’t have a sister called Lillian.  So who was Lillian Johnson?  Bertione conjectured that Lillian Johnson was in fact Sarah Ann Dennison who for unknown reasons had changed her name.  This hypothesis was strengthened by the discovery that in 1906 a ‘Lilly Johnson’ had married a Thomas Thornely Houldsworth and had named her father as Jonathan Dennison.

The 1911 census showed John Johnson still living with his aunt and uncle but now at Bloomfields, South Villas, Liscard.  He was described as an analytical chemist the very profession pursued by my grandfather John Fleming Denison Johnson.  However, Lillian Johnson seemed to have disappeared.

Bertieone then made contact with a ‘SuffolkSandry97’ who it turned out was the great grand-daughter of another of Sarah Ann Denison’s sisters, Emily.  Evidence from SuffolkSandry97 and a cascade of other sources confirmed that ‘John Johnson' was indeed my great grandfather John Fleming Denison Johnson.  But this still left open the question who was Lillian Johnson?  Was she really Sarah Ann Dennison from Leeds, was she really my grandfather’s mother and if so why had she changed her name and what became of her?

My recent DNA test results confirm that SuffolkSandry97 and I are third cousins thus confirming that Sarah Ann Denison was definitely my grandfather’s mother.  Between us we set about trying to clarify the identity of Lillian Johnson who we suspected to be the Lilly Johnson who had married Thomas Houldsworth in 1906.  The death certificate for a Lily Holdsworth who had died in Chester in 1921 verified this to be the case giving her previous address as ‘South Villas’, Wallasey.  Sadly it also recorded that she died after suffering dysentery for 15 days in Chester Asylum.  Subsequently I obtained her medical records (including a desperately sad photograph) from Chester archives to find that she had spent 8 months in the asylum suffering from melancholia and depression after being transferred there from Birkenhead Union (the workhouse).  These records, 100 years old, make for sad reading and an insight into a very troubled mind; again, I am happy to email a copy to anyone interested.

I have been unable to find any records for Birkenhead Union so any help would be welcome. How long was she there, is there a record of next of kin, previous address, etc.?

Using FindaGrave we located Lily’s resting place in Overleigh New Cemetery, Chester and laid some flowers there exactly 100 years after her death.  She was buried in unconsecrated ground in a communal grave along with 6 others one of them a stillborn child.  We still do not have conclusive proof that Lily/Lillian Johnson actually was Sarah Ann Dennison from Leeds but there is no other credible conclusion to draw other than that this is the case.

Although we have almost closed the book on Sarah/Lily/Lillian, mysteries still surround my grandfather John Fleming Denison Johnson.  His death certificate recorded that he died in Newsham General Hospital in 1973.  Liverpool archives provided the following details from hospital records: “614 NGN 2/9 death register states that John Fleming Johnson was aged 90 and was admitted on 1/10/1969 was buried on 21/3/1973 by the state at Walton Park.  614 NGN 1/10 states that the Dr recommending admission was a Dr Pottinger and that he (JFJ) had come from Westminster House for which we do have the registers: Admitted 8/9/1967 discharged to NGH 1/10/1969 born 1883 agnostic admitted from the John Bagot Hospital, name of relations: none.  Unfortunately we don’t have any records for the John Bagot Hospital nor do we have any records for Walton Park cemetery for this time.” (Actually he was born in 1891 and was 81 when he died.)

Does anyone know what type of hospital John Bagot was and if there is any way of telling how long he might have spent there and where he was before that?

About 10 years ago I visited Walton cemetery and was guided by someone to what was believed to be his grave.  I think that grave records do exist somewhere, does anyone know where?

Between about 1925 and the late 1960s there is scarcely a trace of my grandfather.  Did he have another life, another family or was he just a mentally disturbed drifter?

In November 1939, on (re)enlistment to the army he provided three addresses in the London area (see my January posts), strangely one of these was dated 1930 when he would have had no contact with the army.  At some time between 30th August 1956 and 1957 (by which time his wife Ethel was dead – although he may not have known this) he was likely in Ward 6 Horton Hospital, Epsom (another mental institution) going by the will of Walter Taylor who left him £250.  Records of Horton hospital appear to be held as London Metropolitan Archives Reference H22/NT (NRA 41337 Horton) but I can’t work out how to access them.  Help!.  I am curious to know if he ever mentioned a next of kin other than his wife.

Finally, there is still the mystery of John Johnson, ship’s officer, who he twice mentioned as his father.  Did he ever exist; did Sarah/Lillian/Lily even perhaps marry him?  We will probably never know.

I am happy to post copies of any of the records SuffolkSandry97 and I have accessed.

 

First of all for reference, here is the link to the post on the old forum https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16635

I entered "london metropolitan archives h22" into the National Archives search and a number of results appeared, however I'm not so sure that they have any relevance, perhaps you could drop them an email and ask advice.

Again there are a lot of references to "John Bagot" in the Liverpool Library Archive Catalogue, http://archive.liverpool.gov.uk/calmview/  it would seem that Netherfield Road Hospital was a private hospital. It then became owned by Liverpool Council. Up until the opening of Fazakerly it was the only hospital that admitted patients with infectious diseases other than the workhouse infirmaries and Park Hill. The Liverpool Record Office may have some more details on patient admissions etc.

The grave is a Public one so no headstone will mark it, the number is 11D and to find the area likely to be where it is - walk to the chapel, take a right turn just behind the chapel, known as St John's Avenue, a path crosses over and beyond that path on the left should be the area where it is.  This can only be guessed at by date of burial so don't shoot me if I'm wrong.

I wonder if you might find any useful details about resources held by the Archives, from the Zoom talk which will be given by the Archivists to our members on 29th June https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/?q=news_and_events

Wirral Archives Service | Wirral Council, for Birkenhead Union Workhouse.

  • Workhouse Registers, recording details of those admitted to the Birkenhead Union Workhouse. These include the ‘Creed Registers’, which record details of individuals on admission (including religious denomination), and also birth, baptism and death registers for certain years.

Martin,

If, following Mary's advice, you think there may be something of interest at the Metropolitan Archives in H22/NT (NRA 41337 Horton), I would be happy to make a visit on your behalf. They are due to reopen on Monday (10th May) but I would need to prebook any visit, so I can't promise an immediate response, once you have decided whether or not you would like me to take a look.

If you haven't already seen the LMA description of their holdings, it says this about H22:

Scope and Content:

  • Records of the Banstead Hospital, 1835 - 1985; the Horton Hospital, 1900 - 1990 and the Horton Hospital Malaria Treatment Unit, 1889 - 1979. Papers include minutes, patient registers, case notes, treatment books, staff records, reports, visitors books, research papers, glass plate negatives, financial records, diaries, correspondence with the Public Health Laboratory and subject files relating to malaria and mosquitos.

Extent:73.4 linear metres

Horton Hospital was founded in 1902 by the London County Council as Horton Asylum. It was one of five mental hospitals opened on the Horton Estate, Epsom. In 1915 Horton Asylum became Horton (County of London) War Hospital, which was commanded by Lieutenant-Colonel J.R. Lord. This required the transfer of 2143 patients to sister hospitals. From 1918 until 1937 Horton Asylum became known as Horton Mental Hospital. The Second World War saw Horton once again become a war hospital as part of the Emergency Medical Service, returning to its function as a mental hospital in 1949. Upon the establishment of the National Health Service in 1948, Horton Hospital became part of the South West Metropolitan Region. Between 1974 and 1982 the Hospital was part of the North West Thames Region within the North East District (Teaching) Health Authority. From 1982 the Hospital was part of the North West Thames Region within the Victoria District Health Authority and in 1985 it became part of the Riverside Health Authority. The hospital was closed in 1998.

Copyright:Public records deposited under section 4(1) of the 1958 Public Records Act Copyright to these records rests with the Corporation of London.

Source of Acquisition:

  • Material received in 15 accessions between 1986 and 2002.
  • ACC/3690
  • ACC/3691
  • ACC/3729
  • ACC/3742
  • ACC/3798

Access Restrictions:These records are open to public inspection, although under section 5(4) of the 1958 Public Records Act administrative records are closed for 30 years and patient records for 100 years.

That last bit probably means you won't find anything specific about JFDJ's medical details while in Horton, but possibly his dates of admission and discharge, and next of kin details will be within the administrative records for 1956-57 which can now be accessed.

Andy

Many thanks everyone for helpful replies.

Thankyou Mary for info on grave number; how on earth did you find it and where?  I have found a map of the cemetery on FindaGrave (I think it’s the same one as the engraving at the City Farm) – more like a tourist map than a proper plan however it shows the path behind the chapel as the one leading towards the Tressell grave, am I right?  I do recall when I visited about 10 years ago there were no headstones anywhere – apparently removed for H&S reasons and to stop vandalism.

I checked the Nat Archives as you suggested and Horton hospital is mentioned but probably doesn’t include any patient info.

Regarding John Bagot hospital, Liverpool Archives said they had no other info. so looks like a dead end.  I just wondered if patients would show up on electoral registers but I couldn’t find any using Ancestry.

Yes, I think the Zoom talk about Archives will be interesting – on which subject, do you think anyone made a recording of the DNA talk a couple of months ago?  I was a newcomer to Zoom and didn’t realise you could record.  I was also new to DNA but now realise it is important to my searches.

Bert, I emailed Wirral Archives about a week ago but have heard nothing but I will keep you posted if I hear anything.

Andy, that’s a very nice offer but I wouldn’t like to put you to too much trouble.  Following Mary’s suggestion above I found this

  • Horton, Hanwell and Bexley Asylums (addnl): reports, staff registers, register of funerals and register of seals 1897-1975 (B01/016)

It’s on the link :  https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/accessions/2001/01digests/london.htm

It does rather look like that no medical records are available as you say but to be honest they don’t interest me so much.  It’s the possibility of finding mention of next of kin or addresses that interests me.  I know so little about the last 50 years of my grandfather’s life.  Despite the fact that he had psychiatric problems he might well have met someone else, even had more children.  SuffolkSandry97 struck gold when she took a punt and ordered the death certificate for ‘Lily Holdsworth’, it told us everything we needed to know, so I’m hoping that somehow I might strike gold – even silver would please me!  So if you do get the chance to make visit Andy I would certainly be grateful – but there’s no rush.

On a final note, SuffolkSandry97 and I have put quite a bit of effort into trying to find something about ‘John Fleming’ the neighbour of Sarah Ann Denison in Prescot Road who might be my grandfather’s father. But so far no luck, even with the help of DNA results.  Liverpool must be awash with Flemings so it’s strange we’ve found nothing.  That’s why more understanding about how to use DNA results might help me.

I will mention your last point first, DNA results.  Have you entered the name Fleming into “Search” on the right hand side online with Unviewed, Common Ancestors etc., which opens up three boxes – Match Name, Surname in matches trees and Birth location in matches trees.  The reason you may not have many matches for Fleming could be a break in the line, generally known as a NPE “non parental event” which might change the surname.

But try both surname and also birth location of Liverpool, separately and together.

Unfortunately we are unable for GDPR and other technical reasons to record and offer later any of our talks, not least of the reasons being the copyright of the speaker themselves.  Now you know how to record yourself, perhaps you could try it.

However, try joining a few Facebook Groups for DNA, I will send you a private message with a few links, there are often talks given by those who profess to know much more than I or anybody in our Society would be able to help with.

There are no proper maps in existence for Walton Parochial Cemetery, many of the records were lost when St Nicholas was partly demolished in the blitz.  Unless you make your own the best you may get would be the one you have probably already found online, which is near the entrance to the City Farm.  Yes the path to the right just behind the Chapel will lead you to Robert Tressell’s grave on the right hand side, however the area of interest to you would be the field on the left.  This area will be full of General Graves and as such probably would never had any headstones.  There are a huge number of headstones throughout the cemetery, but they have been left to disintegrate or be overgrown and are very difficult to identify, except the Commonwealth War Graves which a volunteer gardener attempts to keep tidy.

Apart from being noted as “Public Grave” the number itself identifies this grave as being a general one as it is listed on other burials, so there are a number of burials in the same plot.

Martin,

A quick update on the LMA. All their slots for research visits are booked until mid June so I've bid for 22 June onwards - only 12 places per day are available. Will let you know once I have a confirmed booking, in case there's anything else you need me to look at while I'm there.

Andy

 

Andy

 

Martin

I'm an interloper here! However, I was interested in your Denison/Dennison comments. My wifes family is  Denison (one "n"!) from Bradford/Wakefield areas and elsewhere and in my research I have not come across any records in her tribe where "nn" has been used. Denison has always appeared. However, your latest posting uses both  "Sarah Dennison" and  "Sarah Ann Denison" as though they are interchangeable. Am I missing something?

Incidently, there is a Denison Island in Sydney Harbour, Australia!

 

Hello Rozza, it depends what answer you want !  If you think about it, people often change their name, sometimes by choice, sometimes in error., sometimes in ignorance. E.g. Davies to Davis, Anne to Ann, William to Bill  Smyth to Smith.There is no reason why people need to to stick to the name on their birth certificate - they may not even know it for definite. Sometimes parents add or change names at christenings.   Going back to times when literacy was low, names would often be recorded by clerks, priests, etc. who simply chose the spelling that seemed to fit best - sounded right to the ear.  I am a realitive newcomer to family history research but this I have learnt: never take any record for granted. When doing your own searching spread the net as wide as possible. Names, and more especially dates are dodgy.  That's why Ancestry, for instance, gives you 'exact', 'sounds like', 'similar', etc. Hope that helps.

Martin. Thaks for the reply. I agree entirely about accuracy. I have a cousin in the States who was an enumerator at one time and she was told that "in earlier times" as they were paid by the entry, it was not unknown for an enumerator, on finding an empty house, to get the information from the neighbours or to invent it!! It's just that in my research being able to differentiate between Denison and Dennison has actually been very helpful so I was interested in your experience. And in my family's case, I have not found any overlap - as yet!

Hello Rozza, it depends what answer you want !  If you think about it, people often change their name, sometimes by choice, sometimes in error., sometimes in ignorance. E.g. Davies to Davis, Anne to Ann, William to Bill  Smyth to Smith.There is no reason why people need to to stick to the name on their birth certificate - they may not even know it for definite. Sometimes parents add or change names at christenings.   Going back to times when literacy was low, names would often be recorded by clerks, priests, etc. who simply chose the spelling that seemed to fit best - sounded right to the ear.  I am a realitive newcomer to family history research but this I have learnt: never take any record for granted. When doing your own searching spread the net as wide as possible. Names, and more especially dates are dodgy.  That's why Ancestry, for instance, gives you 'exact', 'sounds like', 'similar', etc. Hope that helps.

Andy, sorry not to reply earlier, have been incapacitated - it's an age thing. No worries about the delay. Patience is a virtue. I am still worried that it may be putting you to too much trouble. If you want to give it a miss I will understand. It's a long shot anyway. Martin.

More help if possible please from any clever person with searching tricks up their sleeve.  Since DNA seems the only hope of proving I have a Fleming ancestor I am trying to find descendants of John Fleming aged about 60 living at 375 Prescot Road in 1891.  The 1871 census for the Fleming family appears to show 7 children with the Fleming surname the youngest being Ellen aged 9 months.  However, also listed is Lucy Sullivan who also seems to be recorded as a daughter (although it’s unclear), her age being 11 (probably) months.  If she really was John Fleming’s daughter she must have had a different mother ( … Sullivan ?).  However, I can’t find any record of her birth or later life (of course she may have died). One other peculiarity is she appears to be described as a servant.  Can anyone turn up any info about her?

[img]https://i.imgur.com/gSOlS3Z.png[/img]

Also, despite a lot of searching none of John Fleming’s children show up in any marriage records and none appear to have had children . . . except Mary. I find the following record fairly convincing that Mary was the mother of the Maud Mackay listed as granddaughter aged 3 in 1881 census for Fleming family at 54 Prescot Road. Agreed?  However, I’ve not found a marriage record for the parents nor any record of Maud in later censuses. Can anyone help on this?

[img]https://i.imgur.com/3gwXOjn.png[/img]

 

[img]https://i.imgur.com/0xjcGLR.png[/img]

Name

Maud Mary Simcock

Relative

Mrs E. Simcock

Birth

abt 1883 England

Departure

London

Arrival

24 Sep 1919 New York, New York, USA

Mrs E Simcock is her mother in law, 3 Linden Grove, Wallasey, where Leonard is, 1911 census, without Maud Mary.

1881 census, 70 Cresswell St, RG11 P3666 F12 P18

 

John Mackey38Mary Mackey27Rachel M.E. Mackey15Frances G. Mackey12Emma McVickars41

The link here is the 1919 New york passenger record above, In those records, Maud is visiting sibling Mrs Wilbur, Need to go into more, Frances G Mackey becomes a Mrs Wilbur.

Name:Charles WilbarGender:MaleMarriage Date:28 Oct 1905Marriage Place:Manhattan, New York, USASpouse:Frances G Mackey

What a wizard you are Bert. I wonder if Maud Mary Simcock had children - or have I missed that. Thank you so much.

I found 2, Frances Gertrude and Zitta Evelyn, both died soon after birth if memory serves. Frances G 1899, Zitta needs checking again for date. 1901

Thanks Bert. Yes, I have found both of Maud Mary Mackey’s children Frances Gertrude and Zitta Evelyn; both died in infancy.  But I am puzzled by:

“1881 census, 70 Cresswell St, RG11 P3666 F12 P18

John Mackey38Mary Mackey27Rachel M.E. Mackey15Frances G. Mackey12Emma McVickars41

The link here is the 1919 New york passenger record above, In those records, Maud is visiting sibling Mrs Wilbur, Need to go into more, Frances G Mackey becomes a Mrs Wilbur.”

Are we sure this is the correct John Mackey? Wife Mary is the correct age to be Mary Fleming, but if so, where is baby Maud Mary who would have been 3 years old?  Also, I have Mary Fleming down as having only one daughter.

If Rachel M. E. and Frances G are indeed siblings of Maud Mary I still have some hope of finding Fleming genes.

I haven’t found the record for the New York trip but I take your word for it.

Also can you explain the “RG11 P3666 F12 P18” – sorry it is lost on me.

Thanks, Martin.

Martin,

RG11 is the reference number for the census.

Maud Mary is with her grandparents, 54 Prescot Rd, 1881.

Rachel and Frances are John Mackey's daughters from his first marriage, Maud Mary's step sisters.

.

Martin,

I have World Ancestry and is likely to be the reason I can access the passenger record.

I've been trying to find what happened to Maud Mary, Leonard W Simcock remarried in 1943, have not yet found a death for Maud.

Aha, it makes sense now. Hence if Maud Mary had no further children (which seems unlikely) and if I am right that none of the other Prescot Road Fleming children had children of their own then no other Fleming genes have passed down (except my grandfather - if our hypothesis is correct). Thus without going back 3 or 4 generations to find Fleming genes coming down from Dublin in the early-mid 19th century, I probably have no hope of finding any connection with my DNA. This could be the end of the trail.  Don't worry about chasing any of the Mackey loose ends, they're not going to yield anything of value to me.

Many, many thanks again. Martin.

I probably have no hope of finding any connection with my DNA

Don't give up on that, for all those matches who don't seem obviously related to you, create "quick and dirty" trees and see where they lead.  Quick and dirty meaning you don't need to be very particular about keeping the resources perfect etc. but if you have one you may get matches with other trees too. 

Mary Percivall d.o.b. 1770(?)

By Gwebb1 |
General Genealogy

Hi all.

I am really getting nowhere with this search.  Mary Percivall married Edward Davies (variously described as a 'brewer' and a 'labourer') at St Peter's on 26th April 1789 and that is the only date I can find for her!

Mary and Edward had 7 children between 1790 and 1804, all being baptised at St Nicholas's.  From 1790 they lived in Preston Street (previous addresses being Dale Street, Fontenoy Streer and Webster Street.

Mary was widowed in 1803, a few months before the birth of her last child, son Edward.

Can anyone help me find a likely birth or death for her, please?

Kind regards,

Glen

 

Lancs OPC has this, seems to be the only one in Liverpool 20 years either side of 1770:

Baptism: 13 Nov 1780 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Mary Percival - Daughter of James Percival
    Born: 15 Oct 1780
    Abode: Bachelor Street
    Occupation: Book keeper
    Baptised by: John Shewell, Curate; Bromf. Foulkes, Church Warden
    Register: Baptisms 1780, Page 63, Entry 677
    Source: LDS Film 93833

I think you may have to consider other areas than Liverpool, although that's not to say that the records are complete for Liverpool.

There are baptisms in both Manchester, Prestwich and Haslingden that would fit for date, difficult to confirm of course.

There are lots of burial records for a Mary Davies post 1804, do you know where her husband is buried and that might give a clue as to where she is also? 

Mary's husband, Edward Davies. was buried in the parish of St John on 17th Nov 1803 - I guess this means he was buried in St John's Cemetery?  His last child (baptised Edward) was born in March 1804 and baptised at St Nicholas's on 4th April.  Son's baptism record and husband's burial record give the abode as Preston Street.

Two possible deaths for Mary caught my eye: one in June 1832; record states Mary was a widow, likely d.o.b 1762 and abode: Zeal Street.  Buried at St John's.

                                                            one in October 1822 - record again states Mary is a widow; likely d.o.b. 1765 and abode: Brownlow Hill.  Buried at St Mark's.

Does this get me any further?

I also wondered if Mary re-married, given that she had a young family when she was widowed.  I found a record for a Mary Davies (widow) who married a William Humphreys (cordwainer) at St Nicholas in Nov 1807 but again the trail went cold.

Beginning to wonder if this line of my research may end with Mary and Edward!

Glen

 

Gut feeling would say the Mary buried in St Johns, if there were a grave number it might even have clinched it, but I don't think that happens with a churchyard the same as a cemetery.

I think it might be a back burner job and one day something may pop up and give another clue, the sort of thing does happen quite unexpectedly.

I think you are probably right, Mary.  Her daughter (Catherine Develin after her marriage) was buried in St John's in August 1832 - would have been interesting to have made a link.  The daughter lived in Spitalfields when she died and I can't for the life of me remember where I eventually found this was (I asked about it on the forum years ago!) so don't know if it was anywhere near Zeal Street.

As you so rightly say, something may turn up in the future.

G

Two possible deaths for Mary caught my eye: one in June 1832; record states Mary was a widow, likely d.o.b 1762 and abode: Zeal Street.  Buried at St John's.

 Glen,

From a post on the old forum, it was thought to be Leeds Street and not Zeal St.

My goodness - I seem to have been going round in circles since 2016!  I've spent some time this evening looking back at my posts on the old forum (thanks for the reminder, Bert!).  

Because I was at a different point in my research, I didn't join up all the dots back then.  For instance, I hadn't really made the connection with Preston Street so clearly marked on the Enumerator's map that Mary posted, and the birth of Mary Davies's children.  Nor did I appreciate how close Leeds Street (the name is so clear on that other record) was to Preston Street and Spital Fields, which turned out to have links with 2 generations of the Davies family.  Certainly, I was probably too hasty to rule out the Mary who died in Leeds Street (either in David Lewis Hospital or otherwise).

I probably don't have enough to say definitely that I have found the death of my ancestor but I will certainly keep these notes at the top of the pile this time!

Thanks again, folks, for your help and observations.

Glen 

From a post on the old forum, it was thought to be Leeds Street and not Zeal St.

Bert

That would fit quite well for location wouldn't it. 

Special Fee for a copy of an Entry of Birth

By stewpot1944 |
General Genealogy

I have a Certified Copy of an Entry of Birth relating to my mother. It was "supplied at the Special Fee of 6d Applcable in Certain Statutory Cases". The purpose in this case was relating to Elementary Education.

The certificate was issued in Augus 1932 and it says mum's DoB was July 1918, making her 14 years old. Why would this certificate be required if she was about to leave, or had already left, fulltime education?

stewpot1944

3 years 12 months ago

Permalink

Many thanks. The section of the act which seems to apply is Part 1, 5, (2) but in this context I’m not clear what a copy birth certificate would prove, except the age. It wouldn’t prove that a person had been or was being educated, would it?

As you will have seen from reading the 1876 Elementary Education Act, the key watershed is the time the child reaches the age of ten, hence the importance of establishing his/her birth date. This is explained in section 25 of the Act:

25 Certificates of birth for purposes of Act

Where the age of any child is required to be ascertained or proved for the purposes of this Act, or for any purpose connected, with the elementary education or employment in labour of such child, any person [...] shall be entitled to obtain a certified copy under the hand of the registrar or superintendent registrar of the entry in the register under the Births and Deaths Registration Acts 1836 to 1874, of the birth of the child named in the requisition.

The corresponding certificate that a child had reached the necessary standard of education is covered in section 24, where again provision was made for the cost of the certificate to be subsidised.

Like Mary, I have only heard of these and not seen one, is it different from an ordinary Copy Birth Certificate?

Does it have, Elementary Education, written, printed or stamped on it to distinguish it from a Birth certificate? 

stewpot1944

3 years 12 months ago

Permalink

Many thanks everyone. That’s cleared it up for me. The words are stamped on - I have attached a copy for you.

Good to see that, one to add to others, there are some specially certified for Insurance purposes and others I can't think of at present.

Thanks Stew,

"A picture paints a thousand words"

Photos of Kensington

By barton_aj |
General Genealogy

Hi there,

Realise this may be a long shot, but does anyone have any photos of the block of shops on the south side of Kensington between Houlton and Holdsworth Streets (nos 242-264) prior to the construction of Kensington Square?  I believe that 242 was occupied by the Pawn Shop Pub before demolition if that helps anyone locate this block.

My great-grandparentsl lived above their son's hairdressing business at 256 Kensington from c.1900-1924, after which their daughter Ada Killey used the downstairs premises first as a second hand bookshop and later as a bakery/confectioner's.

The shop was later occupied by an Ellis and Co Estate Agents.

I would imagine it stood until it was demolished during the construction of the Kensington Square development but have never seen it and would love to have a photograph if anyone can help.

Thanks so much in advance and take care,

Andy Barton

Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

The most likely places to ask for/find photographs are through some of the Facebook Groups where people have copies themselves and are happy to share.

Kensington - https://www.facebook.com/pages/Kensington,%20Liverpool/112110618800821/

Liverpool Today and History - https://www.facebook.com/groups/584932338206261

Liverpool Hidden History - https://www.facebook.com/groups/hiddenhistories

In My Liverpool Home - https://www.facebook.com/groups/339168426171980/?multi_permalinks=39930…

Thanks Mary. Had seen the Kensington FB site but it appears to be more focussed on local services for current residents than history. Will try some of the others if I don't get any joy on here. Anything anyone can tell me about the block could potentially be of interest.  After posting I discovered that Google Earth allows users to access street views back to 2008 so at least I have an image of the (pretty much derelict) block now though hard to determine which unit was no. 256.

Thanks again

Hello Andy,

Sorry no photo but must have walked past the location many times in the 1960's. You may already have a map showing where the shop was precisely:-

 

Hi Promenade. Thanks so much for posting the map for me. I only came across it myself the day I posted and was super happy to find out that I had the right block!  Interestingly the street numbering on the opposite (north side) block is still the same as it was in this map, with no. 209 on the corner of Kensington/Hawkins Street.

This is the image I found on Google Street View for 2008. Have outlined the two units I think are the most likely candidates. 

Thanks again for your help Promenade - take care

Andy

Rodgers family in mid nineteenth century Liverpool

By AndyG |
General Genealogy

Hello,

I am investigating a family with the surname Rodgers involved in Liverpool in the 1860-1880 period.On the wedding certificate,when William Rodgers married widow Jane Maguire(nee Lambert) at St Lukes Church in 1869,he was described as a mariner and his father,Geoffrey,as a shipbuilder.Their address was Hawke Street,LIverpool.I do appreciate how many marine employeees or entrepreneurs there were in the City at that time.......

It seems likely that William had met Jane while involved in cross Irish Sea trade,as she lived in Dublin and her father was described as a mercantile clerk.Their daughter,Madeline,was born in 1871 in Paddington,London which,while a way away from the London docklands and the Thames,was central to Londons canal network.Interestingly,the 1871 Census was conducted very shortly after Madeline's birth,and place the baby and Jane at a convalescent house in Ramsgate Kent.There is no trace of William at that time...

I am seeking information about the area of Hawke Street at that time,to try to gain some idea of their status.I see St Lukes was a significant church....

I am also seeking any knowledge of the economic activities of the Rodgers family,to see whether my ideas are valid.

Jane Lambert was my wifes great great grandmother...her great grandmother was Sarah Maguire,but I can find no records of her from 1862 until her marriage in Chorlton on Medlock in 1889,and ,as she was only nine at time of Janes second marriage,information about the Rodgers may inform my search for Sarah.

All help,advice or guidance would be very appreciated,

Many thanks,

AndyG

Andy,

 

Hawke Street was a mix of Houses and Courts, Electoral Roll 1869/71 and 1911 census, which will give you a flavour of property size.

 

27 Hawke Street was the home of Samuel Rowe, Coachbuilder and his family at the time of William's marriage, Perhaps the address was used to marry in the Parish?

Hi and welcome to the forum.  St Lukes church is indeed a landmark in Liverpool, known locally as the "Bombed Out Church" which is now a monument to the blitz and those who fell in it.

Just a couple of suggestions, could it be that she travelled with her future husband, I'm wondering whether checking with Watermen records might prove useful, there is a website linked to the Ormskirk FHS site http://www.boatfamilies.website/ that might give you some background.

The Manchester & Lancashire FHS might also prove useful for the area of Chorlton.

 

The 2 records William Rodgers appears on, he is recorded as Mariner and Seaman, it's unlikely a Boatman would be recorded this way.

 

There isn't a recorded death for a Geoffrey/Jeffery Rodgers in England and Wales 1837/1920. It may suggest though William was married here, he was not a native of Liverpool.

There is a G Rodgers Death at Sea, 1923.  Here is the reference for the National Archives, if you are quick you may be able to download it for free before lockdown ends.

Archive reference BT 334
Box 0078
Archive

The National Archives
Record set British Armed Forces And Overseas Deaths And Burials

Thank you all for your responses to my initial query.I shall endeavour to follow up some of the links and suggestions.

The Maguire's and their associated families seem quite elusive and always seem to have more questions than answers.....From your feedbacks,I am especially intrigued by the concept that neither Jane Maguire or William Rodgers seem to have lived at the address given on their wedding certificate and perhaps used it to be able to marry at St Luke's...I thought banns were read some weeks in advance of a ceremony in the parish church of the couple.Actually,in 1889,Sarah Maguire was married in Chorlton on Medlock,both she and her spouse to be gave the same address in Chorlton prior to their marriage,so perhaps this was common practice?
The fact that both William and his father Geoffrey seem difficult to trace,and indeed,as has been speculated,may not have been from Liverpool,further complicates my situation.It does make me ponder on the birth of Madeline,as I had assumed that the family were all together in Paddington,and William is indeed not present only a couple of weeks later when Jane and her baby were in Ramsgate.

However,I am grateful for your interest,time and advice....

Regards,

Andy G

 

Your thinking is correct about addresses of convenience.  If both bride and groom lived in the parish of their marriage it meant that only one set of Banns had to be called - and paid for! 

If one or both lodged at 27 Hawke Street, it would be very difficult to prove. However I would favour Jane if any. The 1871 census has Jane recorded as a Medical Nurse, Hawke Street is off Brownlow Hill, close to Liverpool Workhouse. If any infirmary staff records exist, perhaps a possibility, Jane may show.

 

Not being able to find any suitable records for Geoffrey Rodgers in UK records makes me wonder if he existed, not uncommon for fathers names to be invented rather than leave blank on marriage certificate. I suspect Jane was in Ramsgate because that was where William was from.

 

Did Jane die and that is the reason Madeline came back North and is Living with John Cage and family, 1881? 

Madeline's birth certificate, Addresses and informant?

Red House, southport

By jennychallinor |
General Genealogy

I was born in 1945 in Red House, Southport. I was  given up for adoption at 3 months. 
I have the name of my birth mother, but very little other information. Long shot but can 

anyone help ? 

Mothers full name  Gladys Roberts age 21 

my birth name        Jennifer Dawn Roberts DOB 16/11/1945

 

 

 

Hi Jenny

I have just joined, and I have one of my ancestors too who was born in April 1943 in Red House, Shore Road, I had no idea where this was until I found you and the other members in this forum.

I would love to see a photo of the building.

Regards

Irene

Welcome to the forum Irene, I hope some of the previous posters see your message and perhaps come along and join in.  For further information you could use the link to our old forum, posted by John O below and see what others said then.

For photographs I would suggest that you join a few Facebook Groups that centre on Southport, we often find there are members on there who hold copies of photographs of various places and they are willing to share.

Hello Mary, thank you for replying to me. The link below from John no longer works. I searched Google Maps and found exactly where this house is, and then I searched for the house itself, managed to get a good picture of it taken this year. What I would like to have found on Google was a photo from back in the 1940's. But never mind. Thanks again. Irene

Personally I haven't heard of it, but as advised to Jenny her Adoption File might give just an extra clue.  I also believe she is trying one or two groups that specialise in adoptions to see if they are able to help.

Thanks John for the link and as in the link I can't find any evidence that the Red House was on the Promenade, various directories, census and telephone books has no mention of it, a conclusion Hilary reached. There was a Red House, 24 Shore Rd, also mentioned by Hilary, this property, 1939 register was vacant along with 26 Shore Rd. I can't think of any reason a property on The Promenade would be renamed in 1945 when the births took place. I lean towards 24 Shore Road being used for that purpose during that time period if in fact it was for Maternity purposes, that would depend on how many births are registered at that address.

It might be worthwhile Jenny enquiring with the Atkinson Library in Southport, or Crosby as to whether any records or documents have been deposited with the Archives.

It might be worthwhile Jenny enquiring with the Atkinson Library in Southport, or Crosby as to whether any records or documents have been deposited with the Archives.

Yes, worthwhile.

Another mention of a birth below.

Hi Sorry I'm a bit late to this but I live just around the corner from The Red House which is on Shore Road in Ainsdale. I don't know much about it to be honest but I do believe it was a maternity hospital in the past. It is a lovely big red brick house. It might not be today because i've got to go out now but next time I past I will take a photograph for you. Hope that helps a little. Heidi 

Ok here are a few photos of The Red House which is a number 24 Shore Road in Ainsdale. Also there is a group on facebook called 'The Southport of Yesterday' if you search that group a few other people have asked about the house and there are a couple of other photos as well. Hope that helps a little Heidi 

Hello Heidi

I too have ancestor born in Red House, Shore Road, would you mind please letting me see one of your photographs of the building. I would love to see it.

Many thanks

Irene

jennychallinor

3 years 11 months ago

Permalink

Thank you so much for going to all this trouble for me, much appreciated. 

The Red House is in Ainsdale, Shore Road. 

Also I have found out that 79 Albert Road Southport was a Mother and Baby home for women who were in the forces and got pregnant. my mother was a wren. 

Thank you again 

Still searching Eddleston

By Roy123 |
General Genealogy

Hello everyone,

I contacted you last year in the hope of finding more about my Maternal Grandfather, John Eddleston born in 1880. You very kindly found he had been in the Prescot Union and then in the Kirkdale School from 10th April 1884 to 11th December 1886 before returning to Prescot. I know very liitle about his life until he married Bertha Goodlad in Manchester on 12th August 1908, he is not appearing on the 1891 or 1901 censuses.

I have been doing some research and I have discovered from the 1881 census a young boy John Forrest aged 1 living at 15, Volunteer St. Windle, Prescot. His mother is Kate (Catherine Forrest) and he is living with a household headed by Thomas Eddleston.

The Forrest family were headed by an Irishman Henry Forrest and his wife Catherine also Irish. In the 1871 census they were living at Victoria St Windle, Catherine was then 11. The 1881 census shows them at 11, Gerard St Windle.

Interestingly John Forrest seems to have been born in Glasgow. I am thinking that as he was born out of wedlock maybe Catherine was sent up to Glasgow to have him although I can't find a record of his birth. Was this a common occurrence then? I would like to find out where he may have been born and when.

Catherine then marries Edward Eddleston on 26th December 1881 (I have got the marriage cert), so young John would then become John Eddleston, this I believe to be my Grandfather. Thomas Eddleston born 1855 (mentioned before) and Edward Eddleston born 1861 are brothers.

I have no idea what happened to the marriage of Catherine and Edward but tragically Catherine died in Prescot Union and was buried in February 1884, a little baby Edward Eddleston was buried in July 1884 at St Mary the Virgin Prescot aged 5 months. I can only assume Catherine died giving birth to Edward. Her other son John was in Prescot Union at the same time and I wonder if he was told he had a brother or his mother had died?

I have no evidence that Edward was in the Workhouse, he remarried in 1889 to Elizabeth Hesketh.

Sorry about the length of this but I am trying to get things straight in my own mind. I need to be sure John Forrest (Eddleston) is my Grandfather. Why was he born in Glasgow? Are there any records? Why would Catherine and John end up in the Workhouse? Did Edward just abandon them, his wife must have been pregnant.

I believe the records from Prescot Union A-F, no longer exist so I don't know if I could find when John left or what happened to Catherine.

The only possible clue I have is that our family were friendly with a Middlehurst family in St Helens, a Middlehurst had a grocery shop on Gerard St. so maybe they knew John, also a Mr Middlehurst was a Guardian at Prescot Union (from Pauline Hursts' excellent book). I am wondering that whenever John left Prescot Union he went to live with a Middlehurst?

It is a bit of a saga but I am hoping to find out some more with the help of the Society.

Thanks

Roy

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry that we haven't been able to reply to your enquiry Roy, I believe like myself, others have probably had difficulty in discovering anything to report back to you.

Another option might be to forward an enquiry to be placed into our Journal, it might be read by a wider audience living in the area in question.  Write to editor@lswlfhs.org.uk

I hope somebody in the locality might know something of the family.

Inquest July 1860

By AnitaK |
General Genealogy

Hello everyone - have been a quiet member for a few months now, and am getting to grips with genealogy and where to research, having started building my family tree since retirement last year.

I have a number of queries, I do go off at tangents at times, but hope someone can help point me in the right direction(s).

My ggg-grandfather was named Johnson Citizen and is noted on 1851 census as being born in Denmark and a British Subject. I would like to know more about his Danish heritage and also how he came to be a British subject. Are there any recommended routes I could follow to find this information out?

Sadly, he died in July 1860 in Northern Hospital - the death certificate states "accidently killed on board of a ship. Fracture of the skull and leg." It has states that an inquest was held on 13th July 1860. Is there anywhere to get more information about the inquest?

I can't find him on earlier censuses, but do have his marriage certificate from 1838, to Patricia Duncan (born in Scotland), they were married in St. Nicholas' Liverpool.

Any guidance would be much appreciated. Thanks.

The majority of Inquests have not been kept, the best place to look for any information would be the newspapers, if you don't have access to a subscription site with newspapers included, then join the Lancashire Library where you will be able to use your library code to access the Digital newspapers, these are up to 1900.

Naturalisations I would imagine you would get the most information from the National Archives, if you find anything at present whilst still in lockdown, downloads are free (be quick I don't know how long that will last since we are starting to come out of it).

There's nothing I could see in the Lancashire Library Newspapers. He's likely to be at sea during the 1841 census, if you haven't found his wife and child, 1841, I can provide the details.

Anita,

The joys of Ancestry transcription

Still searching Edwards

By eino |
General Genealogy

I've been searching for my father-in-law heritage for some years, but no results. May bee someone here might be able to help me? 

His names was David Thomas Edwards, borned june 3 1942 in Liverpool, father James Edwards borned 1914, mother Gladys b Smith 1916. He also had an younger brother, Jim. 

The family lived in Bootle. 

David Thomas died in Norway in nov. 2011.

 

Details of the marriage James Edwards/Gladys Smith are not online, you will need to purchase the certificate from the GRO. It should give you James father, occupation and addresses, etc.

 1935, Marriage, Liverpool N, Vol 8b Page 994

 

Hi and welcome to the forum.  If you don't already have the marriage certificate for James and Gladys you can order it online at www.gro.gov.uk using these references - you will need to create a free account to use this service.

June Quarter 1935

James Edwards and Gladys Smith

Liverpool North District Vol 8b Page 994

This will give you the addresses they lived, ages and occupations, father's names and occupations and witnesses, who might also be relatives.  Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be available online.

If you use this site https://www.freebmd.org.uk/ which is a free one and enter the surnames and check "births" you will see a number of births matching those names in between the marriage (1935) and the date of David's birth 1942, which is noted in the district of Bootle, others are registered under the Liverpool North which would be correct for Bootle before it became a district in its own right.

There is a Gladys Edwards living at 4a Hawthorne Road, Bootle, birthdate 16 December 1916 in the 1939 Register, there is an officially closed entry, which means that the child would have been born before 1939 but hasn't been identified as being deceased so they are not allowed to show the details.  Although she is married there is no husband at home, could mean that he has already signed up for the military.

As I said above, you would need the marriage certificate to confirm the fathers, in order to take this further.

I've found the marriage of James Alxander Green and Elisabeth Black ( the other grandparents ) from 1914. :-)  I'll try to get the ove from James Edwards and Gladys too :-) 

I'm not used with the english sertificates, so if you can tell me what the different ifo is I would be very happy :-)

 

You appear to have ordered this Certificate from the General Register Office back in 2012, unfortunately as I wasn't able to find the marriage for your other grandparents online, it would seem that you will have to purchase their certificate in the same way from www.gro.gov.uk, using the details I gave above

June Quarter 1935

James Edwards and Gladys Smith

Liverpool North District Vol 8b Page 994

Address Walton Institute

By Sue H |
General Genealogy

Morning All

Couldn't sleep so messing around with my Davies tree.

I came across an address.......not 100% sure it's my Sara and Norah Davies but can anyone tell what this address means please?

Rooms, Walton Institution Rice Lane.......I have found them possibly in 1923-1925

 

Thank you

Suex

 

 

 

Formerly Walton Workhouse, later, Walton Hospital.

You've edumacated me there Bert, I never knew it was known by that name, thanks. 

Morning all

Dont know why but had difficulty posting reply for a few day.

Anyway thank you all for your replies.

I did know the that Walton had been a Workhouse before becoming a hospital. What has shocked me is the fact that my family could have been there in 1923 maybe up to 1925. I know Auntie Norah had become a nurse from a very early age and at first I thought it was the fact she may have been in nursing quarters.  However going further back I discovered my nan. At present these are just names.......I obviously have to try and find out are they my relatives for definite.

I know there is a gap in my family history from 1918 until possibly 1926. I know in 1926 my grandfather is living with my great grandmother.......the reason he and nan had married......but nan would have been under age to appear......if I'm right. 
 

Having found them altogether 1926 I dismissed the fact that my great grandmother had left them to live with her new husband. My nan never talked about her mother........infact I always believed her mother was called Sara not Norah. Thanks to this group that notion was but right.........but it's still a shock to maybe find them there.

Suex

Correct titles,

Founded, 1868, West Derby Poor Law Institution (to 1913); Walton Institution Infirmary (1913-1930)  Walton Hospital.

Hi Bert 

Going to see if it ties in with her training

suex

I too was shocked to find so many ancestors in the workhouse until I discovered that they were also infirmaries. Quote from wikipedia - 

As the 19th century wore on, workhouses increasingly became refuges for the elderly, infirm, and sick rather than the able-bodied poor, and in 1929 legislation was passed to allow local authorities to take over workhouse infirmaries as municipal hospitals. Although workhouses were formally abolished by the same legislation in 1930, many continued under their new appellation of Public Assistance Institutions under the control of local authorities. It was not until the National Assistance Act 1948 that the last vestiges of the Poor Law disappeared, and with them the workhouses.

Sue,

On this occasion my best guess would be, "Rooms" would refer to, Lodging, Boarding or perhaps Nurses quarters as opposed to an inmate or patient, I suspect wards or similar would have been used.

On this occasion my best guess would be, "Rooms" would refer to, Lodging, Boarding or perhaps Nurses quarters as opposed to an inmate or patient

I would agree with that and if you ever go past the site you can see the nurses quarters which I believe are now flats, as are the older buildings around the clock tower.  

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4519546,-2.9644981,3a,75y,321.39h,83.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sP71vrfinmlfRAF28eo18gA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

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