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Birth certificate for Mary Ann Nichol (various spellings) 1842/43

By Gwebb1 |

I am trying to find the GRO birth certifcate for Mary Ann Nichol (or any other record that would give me her mother's maiden name).

Her parents were Thomas and Margaret Nichol and according to the censuses of 1851-1871 and her burial record she seems to have been born in Liverpool1842/43.  I've found a non-conformist baptism record on FamilySearch for a Mary Ann Christiana Nichols that looks a possibility but only gives the parents as Thos and Margt Nichols but there does not seem to be a corresponding GRO record.  This non-conformist record gives the child's birth as 2 Dec 1841 and the baptism took place on 26 Dec.

The census records also show that Mary Ann had a sister called Harriet, also born in Liverpool in about 1841, but again I cannot find any record that gives me the nother's maiden name.

Another sister, Margaret, seems to have been born in Ireland in about 1839 - her mother is also recorded on the censuses as being from Ireland while Thomas is said to be from Dundee (1871 census).

I have looked for a possible marriage of Thomas and Margaret as this would obviously give me the mother's maiden name and I found one between a Thomas Nichol (who could well have been Scottish) to a Margaret Foy (could be an Irish name) in Liverpool in 1838 and these could well be the girls' parents.  However, I think there may be a link between Thomas Nichol and another branch of my family but the father's name on the marriage certificate does not support this hence my desire for a further check before I abandon my theory completely!

I'm quite intrigued that there does not seem to be a GRO certificate for either Mary Ann or Harriet.

Can anyone help?

Many thanks, Glen

Glen,

 

One consolation is the name Foy doesn't appear as a maiden name to any Nichol's children, GRO reg.

Another way of looking at it, where have Thomas Nichol/Margaret Foy gone?

 

A frustrating one this as there seems that there would be several records for me to look at post-1837 to identify the maiden name of the mother and yet none of them seem yo offer the solution!

Yes, Bert, I hadn't taken on-board that the absence of Foy as a mother's name might be a positive as far as my theory is concerned (to fill you in: Mary Ann married William Laurenson Gordon in 1860 and I think their grandfathers may have been cousins but not if Thomas Nichol's father is Alexander as is the case in the Nichol/Foy marriage!)

Any ideas why neither Harriet noe Mary Ann appear to have GRO certificates?

Another anomoly is that I not only found a non-conformist baptism record for a Mary Ann Christiana Nicols, it would seem the baptism also took place at at St Anthony's on exactly the same day!  Any explanations?

I've even considered the possibility that Thomas and Margaret were married after the girls were born but before the 1851 census where they appear as man and wife but I cannot see a  suitable marriage and I might have also expected to find birth records for a Harriet and a Mary Ann with the same surname but have again drawn a blank at least as far as Liverpool is concerned.

Following up Bert's idea re: what happened to Margaret Foy - I can't find her and Thomas on the 1841 census and no obvious death records so I'm not sure where that leaves me.

Re: Andy's Ashton birth record - I think the parents were John and Ann which kind of rules it out but I did notice a Harriet Nicholl born 1840 in Halifax  and a couple of Mary Ann Nicholls born 1842/43 in Halifax - I'll check out the sunames but seems a bit of a longshot.

G.

Nope - all the entries for Halifax are differnt mothers!

Perhaps I need to try the Irish records as the censuses show the eldest daughter, Margaret, was born there about 1839.

G

Glen,

 

At the period of time the girls were born, it wasn't absolutely compulsory to register as such, there were no penalties for not doing so.

It was up to the registrar to find out the new babies and register them, at a cost. Some parents avoided registration purely for financial reasons and considered baptism and its cost more important.

 

It may well be good thing you can't find Thomas Nichol/Margaret Foy, you may have already found them.  

For those who can't see it,

Name:Mary Ann Christiana NicholsGender:FemaleBirth Date:2 Dec 1841Baptism Date:26 Dec 1841Baptism Place:St. Anthony's, Liverpool, Lancashire, EnglandFather:Thos NicholsMother:MargtFHL Film Number:396380Reference ID:yr 1841-1842

Glen,

Have you this, about 9 months after the marriage, church records are not downloaded, no image.

Gwebb1

4 years 2 months ago

In reply to by bertieone

Well done, Bert - where did you find the Irish record?  That definitely seems the correct one for Mary Ann's sister - the date corresponds perfectly with the census records.  How annoying though that the record does not show the mother's maiden name!

Now, if only I could find a marriage in Ireland between Thomas and Margaret to give me that elusive maiden name......!  Otherwise  I have to accept that Thomas and Margaret Foy may have got married in Liverpool then returned to the wife's home for the birth of her first child before coming back and settling in Liverpool.

I had seen the St Anthony's baptism record before but how does this marry with the non-conformist record for the same dates - not as though the family could have had a quick baptism because the child was ill and then a more 'family affair' when things more more settled.  Seems as though they must literally have gone from one ceremony to the other!  Any ideas?

Many thanks,

Glen

Glen,

 

I've seen the none conformist record on Family Search, page 1 of those records has the title, St Anthony's. Unless there was 2 St Anthony's at that time I don't know, as far as I know St Anthony's was Catholic. The baptism was performed by a Minister, I'm not aware the catholic church would call a priest, Minister. I guess the records have been mixed up and Ancestry have transcribed what they see.

 

 

 

Great stuff, Bert.  I've just been on the Irish site and I can't see any marriage between a Thomas Nichol/s etc and a Margaret but there were baptisms for 2 Margarets (1814 and 1820), either of whom could be the Margaret Nichol on the censuses.  I think you are right  - I've found Thomas's parents, even though it was not the father I was hoping for! Next step, I think I'll go back to the Scottish records and see if I can make a link between the Gordon and Nichol family in another way - I just feel there is something in this one and I don't want to give up on it just yet.  If I find anything, I will let you know.

The RC baptism record for Mary Ann makes sense, given the 1838 one you found.  I may just look through other pages and see if there is anything that could appertain to Harriet Nichol that may have been transcribed incorrectly.

Thanks too, Bert, for the tip about it not being a legal requirement to report births in the 1840s - do you know when it did become compulsory and did the same leeway apply to deaths?

Thanks again. G

 

Glen,

I don't think an undertaker would bury anyone without a death certificate after 1837. Laws became strict after 1874.

 Google,       Births and Deaths Registration Act 1874 (legislation.gov.uk)

 

 

I thought I'd look into the non-conformist record again and at the minister who carried out the baptism, Patrick Phelan and another on the same page, Ambrose Lennon. Both are recorded at 78 Great Homer St, 1841, Catholic Clergymen. So, no mistake made, the record is St Anthony's Catholic Church, Liverpool.

Catholic church regarded as non-conformist?

 

Catholic church regarded as non-conformist?

I noticed that as part of the title of a database on Findmypast, put it down to probable American transcribers not knowing what they were talking about. 

Thanks everyone for your inputs - as I usually do when I turn to this site, I have moved forward with my research and picked up some new skills/information on the way.

No sign of Harriet in the St Anthony registers but I've found a possible death for her in 1863 which I'll follow-up.

I thought I had found the baptism of a Margaret Foy in Dublin that would have been ok date-wise but the father wasn't William Foy as mentioned on the Liverpool marriage.  However, someone I am liasing with in Australia (great hobby this!) has found an 1807 birth of a Thomas Nicol, father Alexander, in Menmuir, not that far away from Dundee so that could prove interesting.

One last thing you could help me with with this family: I have the 1873 Cemetery Register for Mary Ann Hill (having married a Gordon, she was then widowed and remarried to Frederick Hill) indicating she died in 'the workhouse, Mill Road'.  I know this could refer to the hospital rather than the workhouse but there is another entry for her in the Index to Admission and Discharge Book of the Liverpool Workhouse Register (FindMyPast) - gives her address as Howe Street and says her husband was at that address.  Anything here to indicate whether she was in the hospital of workhouse?

Also, it was her parents rather than the husband who are named on the Cemetery Register - should I read anything into this?

G.

 

No sign of Harriet in the St Anthony registers but I've found a possible death for her in 186

How is the name spelt in the death index, if it's a death I would try the RC burials rather than the Church. 

I looked before and after the Mary Ann entry in the church record referred to in post 7 by Bert.  I was looking for something that might have been mis-transcribed and that could refer to Harriet but had no luck.

Nor can I find Harriet in the Cemetery Registers but I thought this GRO record might be worth a punt: 1863  Jul-Sept Liverpool  8b 171.  A ssslight niggle is that it is for 'Nichols' rather than 'Nicoll'.

However, on the 1861 census there is a baby of 10 months living with Thomas, Margaret and Harriet and he is described as being Thomas and Margaret's grandson - perhaps Harriet's illegitimate son?  On the 1871 census the child is described as being T and M's son and I wondered if this might have been due to H's death.  That's the method in my madness!

Glen

Glen,

The 1863 death was 20 years older than your Harriet,

 

Perhaps you need to look further afield, no way of knowing who this one is,

 

Name:Harriet NicholsArrival Date:7 Oct 1863Birth Date:abt 1842Age:21Gender:FemaleEthnicity/ Nationality:EnglishPlace of Origin:EnglandPort of Departure:Liverpool, EnglandDestination:USAPort of Arrival:New York, New York, USAShip Name:Adelaide

Thanks, Bert - hopefully I would have picked this up on the GRO site before I splashed the cash!

At the end of the day, what I am really trying to do is confirm that the birth I have for Thomas Nicoll in 1804 in Dundee is the correct one and this would not be the case if the Nicoll/Foy marriage certificate was the correct one for Mary Ann's and Harriet's parents (hence the desire to find their mother's maiden name).  The father of the Thomas Nicoll on that certificate is a joiner called Alexander and this does not match up with any births for a Thomas in the vicinity of Dundee.  Interestingly, I did find a marriage in Dundee for a Alexander who was a cotton spinner and apparently a 'joiner' can also refer to a spinner who works alongside another spinner to oversee more than one spinning mule but there does not appear to be any birth for a Thomas linked with this Alexander.

Wondering if I should keep it simple and look for a suitble marriage between a Thomas and Margaret in Ireland or a Margaret Somebody born in Ireland in 1818 as per the census details - the 1939 Dublin birth of Margaret Nicoll found by Bert sounds a good starting point.

G.

One final question if I may before I get embroiled in the Irish records.

As well as the entry in the Cemetery Register, I have an 1873 record for Mary Ann (now Hill, having remarried) from the Liverpool Workhouse Registers.  It is in the Index to Admission and Discaharge Book and shows she was admitted on 1st Jan before dying 5 days later.  

Am I correct in thinking she was admitted to the hospital due to illness rather than to the workhouse because she had fallen on hard times?

G.

I don't think we could say with 100% certainty, but it would be a reasonable supposition.  If you were to order the death certificate it would give you the cause of death and on occasions it would say how many days the person had had the illness.

I know from the Cemetery Register (what a boon to have them online) that she died of inflammation and the 'workhouse, Mill Road' address is recorded.  The Workhouse Record tells me she had come from Howe Street and that her husband still lived there.

G