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The elusive Clifford Smith update

By John O |
General Genealogy

Hi all, (Bert, this may be a good idea to hide behind the couch laugh).

I have been trying for a number of years to find the history of my wife's great grandfather, Clifford Smith. You may remember that he had 3 children by 3 different women, all called Alice (the mother, not the children!). Ancestry flagged up a match on my wife's tree, and I contacted the tree owner. It turns out that Walter William Smith, Clifford's son, had a daughter in 1944 who was already in my tree, but her husband was the man who is the tree owner that I contacted.

Walter William was divorced by his wife for cruelty, a trait he must have inherited from his father Clifford who was also a bully. 

It turns out, according to the tree owner, that the 3 Alices were the same woman, who for whatever reason changed her surname on every one of her 3 children's birth certificates. This tree owner says that Clifford and Alice married in Southwark in July 1915, even though I can find no record of it. The 1911 census has them being married for 5 years, and again no record. Maybe they said they were married due to having 2 children by 1911. 

Rumour has it that Alice ran off with a lodger in 1920 something. In 1920 she was living with Clifford at 23 Candia Street, according to the Electoral Register (presume the actual date would be 1919?). I'm hoping the 1921 census may shed some more light on that and them. Alice apparently left Clifford, with or without the lodger, due to cruelty and lived in the British Virgin Islands, and died age 103 and buried in London. More research needed.

The other spanner in the works is that the tree owner's wife, Walter's daughter, said that her father Walter was never forthcoming with anything, but did say that the elusive Clifford Smith was of French origin!! There was talk in the family of him changing his name, but we thought it was his forename. Maybe it was his surname that he changed to Smith indecision.

Back to the drawing board with a large glass of sustinance crying

 

Well I love that story laugh, as you can imagine I'm wondering just how much is true, we know how family tales are embellished.

One thing would be quite difficult to prove is the three Alices being one, I think the only way to be sure is if your DNA matched a descendant of each of them, and that would depend on enough people having tested.

Back to old fashioned methods to see if there's anything new we can find.

One thing would be quite difficult to prove is the three Alices being one

It would help if the original declaration forms could be seen to compare signatues.

They must be held somewhere?

Thanks as ever both. I have messaged Liverpool city council to see if the registers are available to view at St George's hall. 

My wife has taken her DNA test with Ancestry a few years ago and uploaded the results to various places. Her aunt has also taken a test to get one generation closer to matches, but it is very hard to pin down. As mentioned previously (probably several times) I was hoping to get a direct line male Smith to take a DNA test, but the only one alive is allegedly not a nice man. Apart from my wife's grandfather Smith, the rest seem to have been horrible!

Just thinking out loud to myself, my wife's grandad was in Merseyside police. I wonder if his father, flipping Clifford, had to be mentioned in dispatches somewhere when he enrolled or anything?

John,

I have what appears to be the complete service record (four A4 pages long) for a policeman who joined the Lancashire Constabulary in 1909, and it doesn't contain any details about the man's parents. It has his wife's details, and those of his children were added as they came along. However there is no place on the forms for parental details of the officer himself. I hope this helps.

If you will indulge me, here is a further update on the elusive Clifford. This is from his granddaughter Joan, whose father was Walter Smith, Clifford's son, and Joan's husband, who I mentioned previously:

"Clifford Smith, claimed his surname was actually Grevaise. He married Alice Barnes bigamously so changed his name to Smith. They had three children, George, Dora and Walter William Smith born 1912 died 2010. 

Alice Barnes, quite a lady eh? Clifford who allegedly married her when she left her husband, May well have lied about the married bit. She did run off with someone else, after George, Dora and Walter was born. At the time of Walter’s birth they lived in Liverpool. Son Walter moved to Wales briefly after he married. Walter, my father never referred to any of his family. Alice probably had several “ husbands” we never heard anything of her. Alice Barnes after having three children with Clifford ran off with another man. She apparently went to British Virgin Islands, but is buried somewhere in London. 

When Joan had her DNA done, she was mostly Welsh, some English and some French from northern France. We don’t know if the Gervaise story is true or not.

I dont know whether to laugh, cry, or just get pie eyed tonight, it moved the goalposts totally. Not sure whether the name is Grevaise or Gervaise, as both are mentioned. I can't see any births in the UK for either surname up until 1930 (supposedly being born c1871) or marriages to Alice, but Gervaise has quite a lot of birth entries from France, but nothing for Grevaise. crying.

 

I would certainly get pie eyed surprise and we will continue to look as best we can.  I'm wondering if there are any emigrations/immigrations listed for BVI, searching Gervaise/Grevaise is only the sort of  variations we expect with English names, we're just going to have to cope with foreign ones.  It gives us a bit of unusual practice.  I'll join you in that drink and perhaps my fingers might produce a correct spelling :)