Join us for full benefits and know that ‘You’ll never search alone’ with your Liverpool and South West Lancashire Family History Society.

marriage certificates and deceased fathers.

By John O |
General Genealogy

Hi all,

I am looking at the marriage of a person in my tree. It has his father's name alongside the image from the Liverpool, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1935 collection, the year in question being 1845. I have the father as died in 1839 but there is no mention alongside the father's name. Looking through pages and pages of images either side, there is no mention anywhere of a deceased father. Could this just be laziness on the part of the person entering the details?

I'm questioning my judgement as all census returns have the father as an umbrella salesman (would make a fortune at the moment) but the occupation against him is farmer. At the time of his death he would have been 51, so not sure if he changed occupation in later years (maybe 1839 was a particularly dry year smiley). I was looking up on Lancs OPC but he died in West Derby so no entry unfortunately. Father's name was James Cooper 1788-1839 and son was William Cooper married Sarah Maycox on 27th May 1845.

Thanks, John

John,

William Cooper marriage address, Clare Street.

Peter Cooper marriage, Martha Sharp, 1862, Address, Clare Street, Father, James Cooper, Farmer.

Hi Bert, yes that's the marriage but the umbrella maker/farmer is throwing me out. From my limited knowledge, once a farmer, always a farmer and not a late change of career.

Hi Bertie, hope you are well. Yes, that's the family. From the 1841 census as above onwards only Frances Cooper is mentioned along with the children. Most of the birth records I can find for them have no father against them. They lived in Waterloo so would have thought that Lancs OPC would have records, but from memory I could only find one child with both parents and not even many of the others. 

Hi John

What was James Cooper's wife's name?

The death for James Cooper in 1839 on GRO has age as 53 Dec qtr West Derby V 20 P 723. Is this the right James?

Cheers

Erika

 

Hi Erica, that's the one I have recorded, it is the only James Cooper around that time that fits with a birth in 1788, give or take. I have them married in Oct 1918 from Lanc OPC with the first child James recorded as 1816(!) and then Sarah being born in 1821 and then up to Peter in 1836. Frances had another child Agnes (my part of the link) in Waterloo Jan 1846, but no father ecorded on the GRO.

Hi John

Do you have Frances's death certificate, or did she remarry? Maybe has James's occupation on it ?

What occupation was given on James's death certificate?

Cheers

Generall speaking if there's no mention of "Deceased" next to the father's name I wouldn't take it for granted that they were living at the time.  Have come across so many who have been proved to have died and we believe that the question just wasn't asked at the Church so it wasn't marked.

 "Frances had another child Agnes (my part of the link) in Waterloo Jan 1846"

 

Frances snr would be to old and is recorded later as Grandmother, do you mean daughter Frances had Agnes?

Hi Bert, apologies, I had the relationship wrong. Frances snr was grandmother, but the mother of Agnes was Sarah Cooper b 1821/2 and not Frances junior. Birth record for Agnes is: COOPER, AGNES. Mother not recorded - . GRO Reference: 1846 M Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 20 Page 1055. 

"Hi Bert, yes that's the marriage but the umbrella maker/farmer is throwing me out. From my limited knowledge, once a farmer, always a farmer and not a late change of career."

 

Perhaps he was left a small piece of land or purchased a small holding, nothing elaborate and that's how the children remember him.

 

I assume Samuel is one of the family, it appears they have moved from Park Lane to The Mews, Waterloo.

Not that I know the area, would this suggest moving to an area more likely to be akin to farming?

James on the 1841 census is recorded as Horse Keeper, perhaps suggests land of some sort, though I know many were kept in urban areas.

James recorded as being 25, rounding down, between 25-29 and born out of county.

Possibly brought into the marriage?

(Bertie got there just before me) For the purposes of elimination, do you already have the details of Samuel, son of James umbrella maker and Frances, baptised 14 July 1822 at St Peter and St Nicholas, Liverpool, family living at Park Lane?

I'm a little confused. You say that the father died in 1839 but all census returns show him as an umbrella salesman. Which census returns are you finding him on?

By the way, one of my GG Grandfathers referred to his father as James and a School Teacher quite correctly, however this was in both 1840 and in 1864, when James most definately died in 1846, so the 1864 marriage should have shown him as deceased. angel

"I'm a little confused. You say that the father died in 1839 but all census returns show him as an umbrella salesman. Which census returns are you finding him on?

By the way, one of my GG Grandfathers referred to his father as James and a School Teacher quite correctly, however this was in both 1840 and in 1864, when James most definately died in 1846, so the 1864 marriage should have shown him as deceased. angel

Shelagh x"

 

Sorry Shelagh I meant birth returns from Lancs OPC and marriage banns records, not census returns blush

 

John, not sure whether you have James's death certificate to see what his occupation was recorded as.

Also any information on Frances's death certificate regarding his occupation.