Many thanks. I didn't find any matches so thank you for persevering. 

this is the picture from plane i guess, ive circled the hotel - St Patrick

This is the map and licensee stuff, all im missing now is a close up of the pub, but that might be a lot. 

licensee

The Isabel Faile that I am interested in is the child of my 5 x great grand parents. William Fell (faile or Fayle) b c 1703.  Married Isabel Brew b 1710 Marown. The baptism record I have for daughter Isabel is 1735 Marown  parents William Fail and Isabel, no maiden name given.  The son of william and Isabel that is my 4 x ggp was born Marown 1738  .  I now (because of the dates you gave) think it might be the marriage in Marown to Kelly.  , as she was born 1835.  The death is in her married name.

Thanks for those 2 images, I don't really understand the first one but i am sure it will be useful.

If there are any wills for William then it might mention Isabel's married name.  I think he died in 1755 Marown.  Thanks Lynne

Please Bert, where did you find the will comments?  

I am going forward from my 5 x ggf through their children to see how my DNA matches are related.  

Thanks again Bert.  What do you think the school was ?

One last question, if I may.  Did William's wife Isabel Brew leave a will .  She died in 1776 Marown, after Her daughter married.

Again thank you very much.  I am intrigued to know what you do as a job, Bert.  I would guess at a scientist or engineer.  Back to family history.  Does this mean that isabel Brew/ Faile married a Clucas after William died in 1755?  That is interesting.  Thanks again Lynne

Many thanks as always Bert, I was not aware of the the 15 year rule, but searching the Overseas Voters link explains that. It looks like they had to register annually to vote and presumably must have given their last known address in the UK every time.

Many thanks Andy, very comprehensive detail. The point about being a seaman makes sense, as this chap was a ship's steward on the transatlantic routes from Southampton. The fact that he never came back after 1948 was maybe nullified by him being away from home a lot of the time and the records were never amended.

Spot on, Bert - that's the one I must have seen when I wasn't really looking for it!

G

Hi everyone.

Can anyone help me with this geographical question, please?  I know Low Hill is a road but does it/did it also refer to a district?

The birth record for Ellen Kerfoot's father in 1692 gives Low Hill as the family's abode; the marriage banns for her son in 1795 state he had been a resident of Low Hill for his whole life and when Ellen herself died in 1795, her burial record states she and her husband were 'of Low Hill'.

Did the family live in the same road for over a 100 years or is it a district that is being referred to?

Many thanks

Glen

While researching Ellen Kerfoot, I came across a granddaughter I didn't know she had and wondered if anyone can spot the baptism record.

She is: Susanna Lawrinson, daughter of William and Margaret (nee Johnson) and she was buried in the church yard at St Mary's Walton-on-the-Hill on 16 Jan 1811.  Her age is gven very precisely as '2 years 8 months'.  Her siblings seem to have all been christened at St Nicholas's.

Ironically, I am just as interested in hearing from people who have a look and draw a blank on this one - for ages, I have been looking for 2 other births connected with Wm and Margaret that have proved elusive so if Susanna's baptism record doesn't turn-up, it could indicate the family had moved away from Liverpool for a few years.  Upholland has cropped up in relation to the other 2 elusive births.

Looking forward to hearing what crops up.

Glen

I have found a copy of the Herdman print giving a date of 1843 but this would be when it was completed, not the time it represents, which, as you say Mary, I think would be much earlier - round about the time I am researching!

By the way, Mary, I have come across an Elizabeth Lunt who was living at 21 Kew Street in 1865 - not one of yours is she?

G

Another piece of general information needed please:

Most of Ellen's grandchildren whom I have been researching were baptized at St Nicholas but 2 (William in 1810 and Elizabeth in 1812) were baptized at St Peter's and St Nicholas - am I correct in thinking this was a different church than the St Nicholas by the Pier Head?  I tried googling it but I am still mot 100% certain I know the answer!

G.

Thanks, Bert. 

Just to check I have understood correctly, I have a record from FamilySearch stating that Mary Ann Lawrenson was christened at 'St Nicholas' in 1802 and a record that shows her brother William was christened at ' St Peter and St Nicholas' in 1810 so would they both have been christened at the same church or would Mary Ann have been christened in the church by the Pier Head and William christened at the church on Church Street?

Glen

Just thinking - am I being a bit thick about this, Bert?  Are you telling me that 'St Nicholas' and 'St Peter and St Nicholas' actually refer to parishes rather than specific buildings and that the children may have been christened in one of several churches in those parishes?

G

The records Bert has posted (LAN OPC?) suggest Mary Ann was baptised at St Nicholas Church and William was baptised at St Peter's - have I made the right deduction?

The references that I found confusing were on Familysearch - I had put in a general search for children with parents William Lawrinson and Margaret Johnson and the references to 'St Nicholas' and 'St Peter and St Nicholas' came up on 'Search Results' - the source was given as England Births and Christenings 1538-1975.   The record I subsequently ran-off from Ancestry for Mary Ann was Liverpool, Lancs, England, Baptisms and Burials 1659-1812 and this stated she had been baptised in the 'Parish of St Nicholas' while the record for Wm (Lancashire, England Baptism, marriages and Burials 1538-1812) just says he was born in Liverpool.

The LAN OPC transcription is much more straightforward - lesson learned: check all records even if you think you have all the information you need!

Thanks again, folks.

Glen

Thanks again, folks.  I think I have probably gone as far as I can with Ellen Kerfoot for the moment although I still have her 3 grandchildren who end up in Liverpool but for whom I cannot find baptism records (Elizabeth, Sarah and Susanna).  All were born between about 1805 and 1808 and I think the answer probably lies in Upholland, the place named as their birthplace by Elizabeth and Sarah on various censuses and as I cannot find any Liverpool records for my Lawrinson family for those years, I am surmising they could well have been in Upholland during this time.  A research challenge for another time, I think!

Glen

Thanks for your comments - I guess that Marjery may have wanted to give the impression she was younger than her husband-to-be when she was actually 2 years only.

It is not a straightforward bit of research since I am suggesting that Margery Griffith, the widow on the marriage bond in 1773, was actually born Mary Roberts in 1746 and that she had married John Griffith in 1771 and was probably widowed in 1772.  The parishes for the married couple given on the bond correspond with the birth records I am currently attributing to them.  'Margery' seems to have been quite an unusual name at the time.

This couple were born and married in Chester which is why I have not asked forum members to help me search but has anyone come across someone changing their name like this before?  Margery had had a sister called Mary who died just before she was born and I did wonder about the liklihood of the second child being commonly referred to as 'Margery' although she had been baptised 'Mary' after her dead sister.

Glen 

Well, no-one has said anything to put me off thinking that I may have found the right people with this bit of research.  Quite pleased with myself really as it involved quite a bit of detective work to get from Margery Griffith to Mary Roberts!

Thanks again.

G

Thanks for your input, Andy - I think from my point of view I would have preferred to hear that your Margery stuck to her new name as that seems to have been what happened to mine.  Obviously, it is just so difficult to check things when you go back to the 1700s and there are probably just too many gaps in my findings to be absolutely sure that Mary Roberts born in 1746 is the Margery Griffith who married in 1773.  I guess it is another bit of my research that has to have a big question mark next to it!

G.

G

Good point, Mary - I know wills have provided useful information for me in the past, both in terms of ruling prospective ancestors in or out of my calculations. 

I have also noticed that the the baptism of John and Margery's first child is given as 'Mary' (although the burial record confirms the child was theirs) so I am thinking this might be further evidence that Mary and Margery are one of the same.  One of their other children has 'Roberts' as a middle name so you can see I am not completely clutching at straws.

Mary/Margery's death has actually been difficult to find too  but I will give the wills a whirl, making sure I look under mary and Margery in case she awitches names again as Andy's relative did!

G

Thanks, everyone.  I think until I find any contradictory evidence, I will go along with the theory that Mary became Marjery no matter what her age was!  i followed Mary A's suggestion about looking at wills but sadly had no luck there either (unless, of course, my ancestor had changed her name yet again!)

G.

Sorry if I caused a few grey hairs there both . Bert, hope you have recovered from the shock . I keep forgetting what I have asked for before, I should revisit the old forums. Although I have Clifford Walter Smith in the tree, that is family memory. He may have been Clifford George in which case the Eastham undertaker would fit. At the marriage of his daughter in 1935 he is an undertaker's agent.

Would the directory give the name of the undertaker? I tried looking on the Companies House website as I hoped if he was a Director I may have found some additional information about him but no joy so far. I have his death cert and location etc., missing the years before.

Thanks both for the comments, very much appreciated as always.

Thanks to Bert and Shaun for your efforts. I do not think that this is the correct person unfortunately. I have my wife's grandfather on the 1911 census. He was George Clifford Smith born in June 1907 in  Liverpool. His father is shown on both census and birth cert as Clifford Smith, born in 1873 in Birmingham Warwickshire. 1911 has Clifford Smith shown as a dock labourer living in Tyne Street Liverpool.

  George Clifford Smith was apparently given his middle name after his father Clifford Smith, which makes sense. Clifford Smith also had a son Walter William Smith, and family say he was named after his father's middle name. 

To answer your question Bert, we are not entirely sure if he was Clifford Walter Smith or Clifford George Smith. All 3 of his children's birth certs have him as Clifford Smith. Occupation was general labourer on one and dock labourer on the other 2. He was a man despised by his family and died alone in Westminster Homes in 1951 and buried in a public grave in Anfield cemetery. As mentioned previously, all three children have different mothers. The 1911 census has him being marroed to Alice Maud for 5 years, but I cannot find a marriage certificate for this or any of his other two 'wives' although a 1920 Liverpool Electoral roll has him as living in Candia Street with Alice Maud. In the 1939 register he is widowed.

1911 has a Nellie Parry or Perry as sister in law, and one of the 3 children has a mother of Alice Maud Parry. Both Alice Maud and her sister Nellie were born in Polar, London. One of my wife's elderly relatives says that Nellie Perry ended up running a Post office in Parkgate in Wirral, but I have not been able to find any records for that either. The first reference to funeral director was in his son's marriage in 1937 then being shown as a groom or coachman in the 1939 register.

Rather frsutrating, also not helped by a family memory that he didn't like his name so changed it. We do not know if it was the Clifford, Walter or George that was changed, but as you can imagine it does not help research. It could possibly be his father was Thomas Prickett Clifford Smith and it may have been the Prickett name that he did not like. Thomas Prickett Clifford Smith was married to Clara Amelia Reeves, and they had a son Clifford Walter Smith in 1871 Birmingham, close to the date on the 1911 census.He apparently fought in the Boer war and was drummed out of either that or the Great war for disobedience and violence.

Both my wife and her aunt have done DNA tests but we have been unable to verify any matches, despite linking to some people with Smiths in their family. The only living male Smith direct descendent lives in New Zealand and has refused to do a DNA test. His father George Clifford Smith is the son of George Clifford Smith, my wife's grandfather. He also refused a DNA test due to as he says 'skeletons in the closet' and passed away in 1919.

Apologies  for the rambling and thanks again for the help, sorry to have driven you to distraction but it is proving a hard nut to crack working backwards from 1911, I have no verified records before that. 

Hi Bert, yes that is his son. Born in Tyne Street where they were in the 1911 census. I have Walter's marriage certificate to Eleanor Parry Jones in 1937 in Liverpool. Definately the right family as my wife's grandparents lived in the house in Arlescourt Road for many years as on the certificate. Walter is in Llandudno in 1939 with Eleanor, one child, record hidden and his father, the elusive Clifford Smith. I think they divorced as Eleanor subsequently married again in 1951 and a family remembers Walter going to live in Nottingham. They had 2 children, a boy and a girl. Clifford Iorwerth Smith was born in Conwy 1938, mother Parry Jones. No idea on the daughter but she can wait!  I haven't chased a death record for Walter yet but a couple of hints on Ancestry may be fruitful. 

Mary, thanks for posting the old forum links. 

Interesting that on the death certificate of Clifford Smith on 20th July 1951, his occupation was shown as dock labourer again and nothing to do with funerals. It is the correct person as my wife's grandfather George Clifford Smith was the informant. 

Hi all, hope everyone is well. I thought that it was about time that I raised the thorny favourite subject of Clifford Smith.

The 1921 census, which I was hoping would help, turned out to be a little help. The family are living at 23 Candia Street. Clifford is shown as a malster for Distillers Company Ltd in Maguire Street. His age is shown as 50 years 5 months, so with the census being taken on 1st June 1921, his DOB would be Jan 1871, which actually tallies with the 1939 register. Alice Maud is still showing as his spouse, but annoyingly, her place of birth is shown as Smethwick in Warwickshire (Birmingham). In 1911 it was Poplar, London. The three children, George, Walter and Dora are there with no surprises.

Luckily, only the other day FindMyPast came up with some hints for Clifford George Smith, undertaker. in Wirral. The newspaper article from April 1939 had this Clifford as being 25 at the time of the article, so I can discount this, even though 'my' Clifford was shown in 1939 as being an undertaker's agent.

Since the last message I posted in May 2021, I have been in touch with Walter's daughter, Joanne, who told me a fair bit of info. It would appear that Alice Maud was already married when she met Clifford. According to Joanne's recollections of her grandfather, they married bigamously. It is a shame that the 1921 census does not include years married as per the 1911 return. More interestingly, but more frustratingly, Clifford claimed that his surname was actually Gervaise, and called himself Smith when he married Alice (if they ever did). He also said that he was of French origin! Joan has had her DNA tested which shows some French ethnicity from Northern France. I had a quick look but could find no Gervaise males born in England or France about Jan 1871. Maybe he told lies about that as well. 

It seems that Joanne did not like her father, or her grandfather Clifford, and nobody liked each other! My wife's grandfather, George Clifford Smith, ran a pub in Oswestry in the 1960's. Joanne told me that her brother Clifford stopped on a journey to Wales for a drink, and saw the name George Smith above the door, and recognised George as he was so like her brother Walter. Clifford said “I think you are my Uncle George” George said “You must be Walter’s son” then turned his back on him and ignored him. 

Never a dull moment, but one that may never be totally resolved. 

Interestingly, on the back of the above, I visited my wife's 92 year old aunt and had a good chat, cuppa and piece of cake. She said that she distinctly remembered her grandfather Clifford working for Linaker's undertakers by the Rotunda on Scotland Road. She also said that she seemed to remember that she was once told that his surname was Cliff. Based on the 1921 return, I did a GRO search of a male Cliff born Q1 in 1871. Lo and behold, this came up. I know that Wolverhampton and Birmingham are about 15 miles apart. I just wonder if this is him!

There is one family tree on Ancestry, which has details of him until 1906 and there is nothing after that. At that stage he was married to Alice (another one?) and has 2 children, so wonder if he did a runner about that time.

Thanks a lot. I feel sure now this is the correct Sarah Bate. I wasn't unaware of this GRO website until now. I have looked at freebmd. This conundrum has defeated me for years! Thanks for all your help. Susan