Hi all, I am revisiting my wife's great grandfather Clifford Walter Smith.
On his son's marriage certificate in 1937 he is shown as a 'Company Director, Funeral furnishings'. On the 1939 Register, living with his son in Wales he is 'coachman or groom' and I think that was still funeral related. I have had a Google but are there any trade directories for Wirral for that time period as I am sure that it was Eastham or nearby?
I have him in the 1911 census in Tyne Street Liverpool, 1920 Liverpool Electoral register in Candia Street Liverpool, but then no trace until 1937/39. In the 1920 return he is shown living with Alice Maud Smith (supposedly his wife although he never married, and he had 3 children all by different women) and John Southern, who she may have ran off to Australia with!
Many thanks, John
Déjà vu
Déjà vu
If you want me I'm hiding behind the couch.
John,
John,
Eastham and Bromborough are in the 1938 Liverpool, etc directory, if memory serves, that's where we found Clifford George Smith, however, wrong person, wasn't it?
Wirral Archives or Birkenhead Library should hold some Wirral Directories, if they are open.
I may be duplicating what has
I may be duplicating what has previously been found but the 1938 Kellys lists the following Clifford Smiths
Smith
Clifford, 13 Salisbury Ter L3
Clifford, foreman engineer, 17 Lingfield Grove, Broadgreen
Clifford Geo, undertaker, 13 Bridle Road, Eastham, Wirral.
Sorry if I caused a few grey
Sorry if I caused a few grey hairs there both
. Bert, hope you have recovered from the shock
. I keep forgetting what I have asked for before, I should revisit the old forums. Although I have Clifford Walter Smith in the tree, that is family memory. He may have been Clifford George in which case the Eastham undertaker would fit. At the marriage of his daughter in 1935 he is an undertaker's agent.
Would the directory give the name of the undertaker? I tried looking on the Companies House website as I hoped if he was a Director I may have found some additional information about him but no joy so far. I have his death cert and location etc., missing the years before.
Thanks both for the comments, very much appreciated as always.
Sorry no the companies are in
Sorry no the companies are in alphabetical order, as are the surnames coming later, so not easy to find anything unless you have the name.
I spoke too soon and found the headings for companies, however none at Bridle Road, Eastham, so I'm suspecting that was his home address and Undertaker was his occupation rather than the company address.
Thanks Mary, looking at
Thanks Mary, looking at Google maps, 13 Bridle Road is a residential property.
I'm sure we've been round
I'm sure we've been round this before but in a court hearing in 1939, it was stated that Clifford George Smith had worked in his mother's funeral director business which operated as "Alex C Smith" in Conway Street, Birkenhead.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000771%2f19390…
Shaun,
Shaun,
The link will not open to non subscribers.
There has been mention before, old forum thread "Smith Family Confusion" put in search box.
John,
is it Clifford George or Clifford Walter we seek?
Referring to the newspaper
Referring to the newspaper report, if the same Clifford George Smith and very likely is, he is the son of Alexander C Smith and Hilda Mary Parker, married, Chester, 1912, Clifford George born 1914, Birkenhead.
Alexander and Hilda had
Alexander and Hilda had several sons. One, Alexander Edward, died of wounds in Tunisia in 1943 shortly after meeting up with his brother Ronald. There are reports and a photo in the papers:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000771%2f19430…
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000271%2f19430…
Clifford George Smith can be
Clifford George Smith can be dismissed, he wasn't on the 1911 census, not born and therefore couldn't be the father of the children or associated with Alice Maud.
Clifford Walter Smith, other than family memory, where is he recorded under that name?
Thanks to Bert and Shaun for
Thanks to Bert and Shaun for your efforts. I do not think that this is the correct person unfortunately. I have my wife's grandfather on the 1911 census. He was George Clifford Smith born in June 1907 in Liverpool. His father is shown on both census and birth cert as Clifford Smith, born in 1873 in Birmingham Warwickshire. 1911 has Clifford Smith shown as a dock labourer living in Tyne Street Liverpool.
George Clifford Smith was apparently given his middle name after his father Clifford Smith, which makes sense. Clifford Smith also had a son Walter William Smith, and family say he was named after his father's middle name.
To answer your question Bert, we are not entirely sure if he was Clifford Walter Smith or Clifford George Smith. All 3 of his children's birth certs have him as Clifford Smith. Occupation was general labourer on one and dock labourer on the other 2. He was a man despised by his family and died alone in Westminster Homes in 1951 and buried in a public grave in Anfield cemetery. As mentioned previously, all three children have different mothers. The 1911 census has him being marroed to Alice Maud for 5 years, but I cannot find a marriage certificate for this or any of his other two 'wives' although a 1920 Liverpool Electoral roll has him as living in Candia Street with Alice Maud. In the 1939 register he is widowed.
1911 has a Nellie Parry or Perry as sister in law, and one of the 3 children has a mother of Alice Maud Parry. Both Alice Maud and her sister Nellie were born in Polar, London. One of my wife's elderly relatives says that Nellie Perry ended up running a Post office in Parkgate in Wirral, but I have not been able to find any records for that either. The first reference to funeral director was in his son's marriage in 1937 then being shown as a groom or coachman in the 1939 register.
Rather frsutrating, also not helped by a family memory that he didn't like his name so changed it. We do not know if it was the Clifford, Walter or George that was changed, but as you can imagine it does not help research. It could possibly be his father was Thomas Prickett Clifford Smith and it may have been the Prickett name that he did not like. Thomas Prickett Clifford Smith was married to Clara Amelia Reeves, and they had a son Clifford Walter Smith in 1871 Birmingham, close to the date on the 1911 census.He apparently fought in the Boer war and was drummed out of either that or the Great war for disobedience and violence.
Both my wife and her aunt have done DNA tests but we have been unable to verify any matches, despite linking to some people with Smiths in their family. The only living male Smith direct descendent lives in New Zealand and has refused to do a DNA test. His father George Clifford Smith is the son of George Clifford Smith, my wife's grandfather. He also refused a DNA test due to as he says 'skeletons in the closet' and passed away in 1919.
Apologies for the rambling and thanks again for the help, sorry to have driven you to distraction but it is proving a hard nut to crack working backwards from 1911, I have no verified records before that.
John,
John,
If it helps for further down the line, the Clifford Walter Smith born to Thomas Smith and Clara Amelia Reeves in 1869, died in 1870.
Given address at burial was, Beaudesert? 30 May, 1870. The GRO has that death Stratford on Avon, aged 11, a mistake, it should be Aged 1.
He is not with the family in 1871 or after, proof the family was in that place in 1870 is the birth of their daughter Anne, born 1870, the 1881 census has Anne aged 10, born, Beaudesert?
Hi Bert, thanks for that. I
Hi Bert, thanks for that. I did remember looking at that record a few years ago, and had discussions with other Ancestry tree members. Not sure if you remember but the 1939 register was a bit ambiguous, giving a DOB of 9.1.1871, but there is another number 77 by it. Unfortunately the code above is hard to read. Maybe the 1921 census next year will give some more clues on this mystery man!
Yes John,
Yes John,
hopefully the 1921 will be kind to you.
What is known about Walter William, sorry if the info is on the old forum, gremlins have struck again.
There are a number of posts
There are a number of posts on the old forum.
Company Director Records https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16571
Missing Mother on Birth Certificate https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=16080
Tracing Disgraced Soldier https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=16084
Smith Family Confusion https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15569
Westminster House Death Records https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15717
Thanks Mary,
Thanks Mary,
It was this I thought I remembered
Hi Bert, yes that is his son.
Hi Bert, yes that is his son. Born in Tyne Street where they were in the 1911 census. I have Walter's marriage certificate to Eleanor Parry Jones in 1937 in Liverpool. Definately the right family as my wife's grandparents lived in the house in Arlescourt Road for many years as on the certificate. Walter is in Llandudno in 1939 with Eleanor, one child, record hidden and his father, the elusive Clifford Smith. I think they divorced as Eleanor subsequently married again in 1951 and a family remembers Walter going to live in Nottingham. They had 2 children, a boy and a girl. Clifford Iorwerth Smith was born in Conwy 1938, mother Parry Jones. No idea on the daughter but she can wait! I haven't chased a death record for Walter yet but a couple of hints on Ancestry may be fruitful.
Mary, thanks for posting the old forum links.
Interesting that on the death certificate of Clifford Smith on 20th July 1951, his occupation was shown as dock labourer again and nothing to do with funerals. It is the correct person as my wife's grandfather George Clifford Smith was the informant.
Hi all, hope everyone is…
Hi all, hope everyone is well. I thought that it was about time that I raised the thorny favourite subject of Clifford Smith.
The 1921 census, which I was hoping would help, turned out to be a little help. The family are living at 23 Candia Street. Clifford is shown as a malster for Distillers Company Ltd in Maguire Street. His age is shown as 50 years 5 months, so with the census being taken on 1st June 1921, his DOB would be Jan 1871, which actually tallies with the 1939 register. Alice Maud is still showing as his spouse, but annoyingly, her place of birth is shown as Smethwick in Warwickshire (Birmingham). In 1911 it was Poplar, London. The three children, George, Walter and Dora are there with no surprises.
Luckily, only the other day FindMyPast came up with some hints for Clifford George Smith, undertaker. in Wirral. The newspaper article from April 1939 had this Clifford as being 25 at the time of the article, so I can discount this, even though 'my' Clifford was shown in 1939 as being an undertaker's agent.
Since the last message I posted in May 2021, I have been in touch with Walter's daughter, Joanne, who told me a fair bit of info. It would appear that Alice Maud was already married when she met Clifford. According to Joanne's recollections of her grandfather, they married bigamously. It is a shame that the 1921 census does not include years married as per the 1911 return. More interestingly, but more frustratingly, Clifford claimed that his surname was actually Gervaise, and called himself Smith when he married Alice (if they ever did). He also said that he was of French origin! Joan has had her DNA tested which shows some French ethnicity from Northern France. I had a quick look but could find no Gervaise males born in England or France about Jan 1871. Maybe he told lies about that as well.
It seems that Joanne did not like her father, or her grandfather Clifford, and nobody liked each other! My wife's grandfather, George Clifford Smith, ran a pub in Oswestry in the 1960's. Joanne told me that her brother Clifford stopped on a journey to Wales for a drink, and saw the name George Smith above the door, and recognised George as he was so like her brother Walter. Clifford said “I think you are my Uncle George” George said “You must be Walter’s son” then turned his back on him and ignored him.
Interestingly, on the back…
Interestingly, on the back of the above, I visited my wife's 92 year old aunt and had a good chat, cuppa and piece of cake. She said that she distinctly remembered her grandfather Clifford working for Linaker's undertakers by the Rotunda on Scotland Road. She also said that she seemed to remember that she was once told that his surname was Cliff. Based on the 1921 return, I did a GRO search of a male Cliff born Q1 in 1871. Lo and behold, this came up. I know that Wolverhampton and Birmingham are about 15 miles apart. I just wonder if this is him!
There is one family tree on Ancestry, which has details of him until 1906 and there is nothing after that. At that stage he was married to Alice (another one?) and has 2 children, so wonder if he did a runner about that time.
Attestation is on a pension…
Attestation is on a pension record, Fold 3, I wonder if it has Gervase's birth date, his birth cert will certainly have and with luck it may match the 39 register date offered by Clifford Smith in Wales.
Just as I thought it was safe to get back into the water.
Ah Bert, you didn't think I…
Ah Bert, you didn't think I would let you off so lightly, did you :) !
Attestation papers on Find My past have thankfully got his age in September 1890 as 19 years and 8 months. He was with the 20th Hussars. This tallies with the 1939 Register which has his dob as 9th Jan 1871. His family were known as the Birmingham butchers, and good enough, Gervase Cliff is a butcher. Obviously my wife's family thought it was the Smith family.
I have contacted the tree owner on Ancestry who has Gervase Cliff in her tree. Unfortunately she knows very little about him, only that he was married to her Dallow relative. He had 2 children by the Norwich Alice. I am hoping that one of the family members may have DNA tested, and I can prove it that way once and for all!