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Fontenoy Street Liverpool 1840s/50’s

By adesso |
General Genealogy

Hello everyone!

My great great grandfather is registered at Fontenoy St on his birth cert in 1849. William Francis  Ballard … father William Ballard, born Ireland and mother Jane Ballard formerly Dawson born Jersey Channel Islands. William Francis and subsequent generations all married in the Church of England. My question is whether Fontenoy St was an Irish Catholic neighbourhood in the 1840s/50’s? Or did Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants arriving in Liverpool live in the same neighbourhoods as each other as they were all Irish? Ballard  is an English name and not an anglicised Irish name but in Ireland  there are Catholic Ballards and Protestant as well. I wondered whether William Francis Ballard’s father was a Catholic and just allowed his family to integrate with the C of E as his wife (William Francis’s mother)was not Irish  Or whether he was a Protestant. I understand that 20% of Irish entering Liverpool were Protestants. I live in Hampshire but I have a lot of ancestry from Liverpool going back to the 1700s and beyond as well as some 2nd/3rd cousins still living there.I hope to visit soon.

Many thanks

David

PS..My 4x great grandparents are on 1841 census in Liverpool.. born Ireland. So I understand would not be escaping the famine but part of the pre existing Irish population of Liverpool.

Thanks for all the records.

That John Cope Horn from Harwich did have an Ellen Horn but she is listed as born in 1816 and baptised in 1824… my Ellen Horn born 1831.

I have those burial record. And details of the plot in the graveyard.

I looked at the Ellen Callaghan marriage to Thomas Brown but it named a different father I think???I think it’s a different marriage but curious?? I think the father listed was Thomas Callaghan???

I attach Ellen Horns marriage record… clearly states John Cope Horn.. he was a mariner.

I know one of the children was Timothy Cornelius Brown as that name is the name my mums dad had… Timothy Cornelius Langridge.   ( my maternal grandad) Names get passed down.

I could only think that John Cope Horn was an English mariner and had a child with a local Cork woman whilst in port there???

Ellen Horn and Thomas Brown lived in Eltham Kent in the census records.They also had a Mary Ann Brown who is my 2x great grandma  marrying a William Ernest Langridge.

what haven’t discovered is if the children Ellen Callaghan had, match  by name the children Ellen Horn had .????

Regards

David

 

Thanks all for those records .

The John Cope Horn from Harwich did have an Ellen Horn but she is listed as being born in 1816 and baptised in 1824.

That record I came across before as well as burial records.

 

The Ellen Callaghan and Thomas Brown was a coincidental one… I do believe although I did think about it. It is a different marriage. I attach the church record of Thomas Brown and Ellen Horn. The Ellen Callahan one listed a different father.

David,

If the 1861 census above is the correct Ellen Brown, how have you got from there to the Ellen Horn marriage? if it's the wrong census, which is the correct one?

 

I know one of the children was Timothy Cornelius Brown as that name is the name my mums dad had… Timothy Cornelius Langridge.   ( my maternal grandad) Names get passed down.

Timothy Cornelius Brown's mothers maiden name was, Callaghan.

Ellen Callaghan's father was Timothy.

Also further children born to Thomas Brown and Ellen also had the mothers maiden name Callaghan. Various following census'

I think coincidentally there were two Ellen browns.. mine lived in Eltham Kent… father John Cope Horn.

ellen horn born cork 1831

ellen Callaghan born cork 1831

i think 2 different women and marrying two Thomas Browns

 

 

What I haven’t figured out is if my Ellen Horns children all match by name and birth year completely with Ellen Callaghan 

I think these were two separate people and both marrying different Thomas Browns.

if the names and birth years of their children are identical then we have a strange situation here

The image I will discard, it could have been posted by anyone and perhaps open to error.

The 1861 and 1871 census, Frith Buildings, children recorded,

Thomas 1857/58, mmn, Callaghan

Timothy 1859 mmn, Callaghan

Agnes 1865, mmn, Callaghan

The rest possibly not registered, none are registered with mmn, Horn.

Mary Ann Brown has not got a reg for either Horn or Callaghan

There's a 1881 census, Thomas Brown, Ellen Brown, born Ireland and Children, one child Ellen, Bn 1872, also has mothers maiden name, Callaghan.

Going back to the Find a Grave image, this Ellen is buried in the same grave as Ellen Brown snr whose name I think has been edited by someone, there is no registered death, Ellen Horn Brown.

No, both Cof E marriages, different fathers, Thomas Brown signed his name Ellen Horn marriage, made his mark, Ellen Callaghan.

So Ellen Callaghan is not my Ellen Horn.

Again I hit a brick wall. The father’s name ‘John Cope Horn’ is not a common name and I still wonder whether Ellen was conceived in Cork by her English mariner father? An affair with a local Cork woman. I think that Ellen Callaghan was born in Dublin… I think I saw it somewhere.

regards

David

And while we all sleep Bertieone is off on the trail! He never sleeps ;)

Please do not accept images/trees posted online by others, perhaps use them as clues but always do your own research rather than accepting others without investigation.

You will see from the top of this page that this forum copies your original query to a second or subsequent page, which this thread no longer relates to.  Can I suggest that if you do have any further queries, you post a separate message for each to stop them being intermingled.

Now to catch up and see if I have anything to add.

I shouldn’t really post about Ellen Horn as this is not a Liverpool matter… Eltham Kent. But I much appreciate all of the help from this forum as it has aided  me a great deal and I am  extremely grateful to you all!

regards 

David

I can only speak for myself, but it doesn't matter what part of the world you enquire about.

 

If Mary Ann is your start point and the 1861 and 1871 census' are the correct families, my opinion is the parents are Thomas Brown and Ellen Callaghan. I've tried to satisfy myself Ellen Horn is the mother but I can't, there isn't the records to prove Ellen Horn is the mother to the children on those census'

All I can add is Mary Ann Brown born Eltham in 1862 is my 2x great grandmother and appears on 1871 census in Eltham with parents Thomas and Ellen. Mother’s place of birth on 1861 census says Cork Ireland. In my tree the Browns and Langridges have strong connection to Eltham and Kent going back.

The children of Thomas and Ellen Brown were

Timothy Cornelius b 1858/9

Thomas

Ellen

Mary Ann ( my 2x great grandma)1862

Martha

Amy

Are these children recorded as Ellen Callaghan as their mum?

regards

I'm happy for our members to post queries for wherever their research takes them, just suggesting that each separate query has it's own post to save confusion.

The only Timothy Cornelius Brown,

adesso

2 years 7 months ago

Permalink

Thanks Bert

Do you know if the other children also had a Callaghan as mothers name?

Mary Ann, Thomas, Martha, Ellen, Amy, ???

that would be good confirmation 

regards

ps I found a Kentish history article about Ellen and Thomas Brown. She was in trouble with the police a lot… hitting her husband with a broom.. he ended up in the workhouse

Thomas 1857/58, mmn, Callaghan

Timothy 1859 mmn, Callaghan

Agnes 1865, mmn, Callaghan

The rest possibly not registered, none are registered with mmn, Horn.

Mary Ann Brown has not got a reg for either Horn or Callaghan

Agnes doesn’t correspond to anything I have. 
Its possible that 2 Ellen Browns having married in same year to 2 different Thomas Browns  having some of their children with same names.

Bert, I do recall finding Thomas Brown and Ellen Brown ( nee Callaghan) living in Greenwich on a census.

At the same time my Ellen Horn and Thomas Brown were living in Eltham.

I enclose  Thomas  Browns workhouse doc

Regards

 

 

 

 

Someone on Geni made the same connection as you to Ellen Callaghan… however the birth place is Dublin and on the 1861 census it’s Cork for Ellen. If Ellen Callaghans place of birth in Ireland can be found that would tell us if she is indeed the Ellen Brown on the 1861 census in my family.  If she’s not born in Cork then it can’t be her.

I attach Geni record

regards

David

Then it must be Ellen Callaghan as my 3x great grandmother and with a good Irish surname!!

You have done if again Bert!

The Kentish history article said she had run ins with the police and was fined £5 for hitting her husband with a broom!!

regards

David

ps I’m becoming  more Irish by the minute!

The last puzzle to solve is the Jane Dawson born Jersey channel island 1820 married to William Ballard born 1816 Ireland and living in Liverpool  although I think they may have been out of the country when they married. I may start a new post as Mary advises!

Do you know if the other children also had a Callaghan as mothers name?

 From this question I surmise that you haven't come across the General Register Office website.  It's one of the best things you can do to get yourself an account - Free! https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp

Then use FreeBMD to narrow down your searches, perhaps by district/volume and then use the GRO site which is the go to site for the mother's maiden name prior to 1911, also year of birth for deaths in earlier years than any other site gives them.

If you then need the birth certificate you can offten choose a .pdf copy which is about £4 cheaper than a certified copy, and totally adequate for research purposes.

Thanks for that

Just to update Bert and Mary on the activities of Ellen Callaghan.

A local Kentish history guy has sent me extracts from the Kentish Times about her.

In trouble and before the court on numerous occasions.

Drunk and disorderly

Violently attacking husband with a broom

Smashing windows

More depressingly attempting to cut her own throat and ending up in Guys hospital.

Tough lives back then!!

And if she had escaped potato famine who knows what disturbing experiences she may  have witnessed back in Ireland.

Regards

David