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Fontenoy Street Liverpool 1840s/50’s

By adesso |
General Genealogy

Hello everyone!

My great great grandfather is registered at Fontenoy St on his birth cert in 1849. William Francis  Ballard … father William Ballard, born Ireland and mother Jane Ballard formerly Dawson born Jersey Channel Islands. William Francis and subsequent generations all married in the Church of England. My question is whether Fontenoy St was an Irish Catholic neighbourhood in the 1840s/50’s? Or did Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants arriving in Liverpool live in the same neighbourhoods as each other as they were all Irish? Ballard  is an English name and not an anglicised Irish name but in Ireland  there are Catholic Ballards and Protestant as well. I wondered whether William Francis Ballard’s father was a Catholic and just allowed his family to integrate with the C of E as his wife (William Francis’s mother)was not Irish  Or whether he was a Protestant. I understand that 20% of Irish entering Liverpool were Protestants. I live in Hampshire but I have a lot of ancestry from Liverpool going back to the 1700s and beyond as well as some 2nd/3rd cousins still living there.I hope to visit soon.

Many thanks

David

PS..My 4x great grandparents are on 1841 census in Liverpool.. born Ireland. So I understand would not be escaping the famine but part of the pre existing Irish population of Liverpool.

Hi and welcome to the forum.  First I would like to ask which church they married in.  Fontenoy Street (top right square in this map) http://justme.org.uk/code/4D.html is quite into the commercial district rather than the outer area of Liverpool.  My thoughts only on this is that they chose the area to do with his business.

Very often say St Peter's church which was the Cathedral at that time, would have been chosen because of the prestige it brought rather than for any affiliation to religious creed.

If you do manage to visit, try to include a Tuesday afternoon when we host a Help Desk at the Central Library, 3rd floor by the Archives.

Thanks Mary

William Francis Ballard married in St Stephen the Martyr church. To Eliza Winifred Harding. 25 th Sept 1876… in West Derby Liverpool? He was a tinsmith. At time of marriage living in Falkland st. His father and grandfather were tinsmiths… father and grandfather born in Ireland.

regards

David

I need you to know that West Derby is a registration district that covered  much of central Liverpool and also the north area.  https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl?start=1876&end=1876&sq=3&eq=3&…

Click on the "West Derby" link and then the "here" link to give you more information on the coverage, confusing to those who don't live here since there is also an area of Liverpool called West Derby and also a village of that name.

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/EdgeHill/StStephentheMartyr Here is the genuki page for St Stephen, including a map of where it was, unfortunately now long gone.  I still believe it would have been near where they lived and worked and chosen for location, I don't believe religion would have been involved, it was not particularly a Catholic area, I would have expected if they had moved here to be with friends/relatives of that religion then they may well have moved nearer the Scotland Road area, which was predominantly RC.

Hello Mary

just a thought… when the Irish were entering Liverpool in the 1840s/50s were there many RC churches or were they built later? And if there weren’t many, does that mean the Catholic Irish were marrying and baptising in C of E churches… the church closest to them?

thanks

David

I'm sure Mary or Bert will be able to add more details, but to my knowledge, St Anthony's on Scotland Road was the main RC  church serving the Vauxhall district where many of the early Irish diaspora initially settled. It was built in 1833. As the Catholic population grew, more churches were built in the area, including the Church of Our Lady of Reconciliation in Eldon Street in the southern part of Vauxhall (built in 1859-60) and St Sylvester's Church on Sylvester Street, built in 1888-89.

Never found a record of that. 
Also never found a record of Jane’s  birth in Jersey either. It said on birth cert for William Francis Ballard that she was formerly Dawson…but I don’t know if that was a previous marriage name or maiden name. The only Janes I find born in Jersey around her birth year have French surnames.

thank you

David

On my mum’s  side I also have a 3x great grandparent born in Ireland (1832.. in Cork)

She came to Kent but her name was Ellen Horn… English surname and ‘Horn’ appears in Catholic and Protestant registers in Ireland. 
Her father was listed as John Cope Horn (Mariner) This doesn’t sound very Irish. The only John Cope Horn I find was a mariner from Harwich in Essex.

My daughters great grandma on her mothers side was born in Dublin 1920… but again a very English sounding name… Edith Kettingham Palmer. I suppose it just shows that the traffic between England, Scotland and Ireland was two way in history.

regards 

David

 traffic between England, Scotland and Ireland was two way in history.

 Absolutely, just read history about the Highland Clearances and the Irish who had to come across to the mainland because the landlords gave them a push, in fact that probably covers the dates you are interested in.

I don’t know about you but I get a little annoyed when people label the Irish who fled the famine and poverty and came to Britain as ‘immigrants’.

I mean in books and in documentaries. They were Irish but also British citizens… the United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Ireland. Calling them immigrants seems to carry on with the stigma that was attached to them at that time. As I see it, my Irish ancestors were not immigrants. They were Irish but also British citizens and were coming to another part of the UK and were entitled to do so.

Regards

David

The requirement is the maiden name at registration, some did mess up but not usually more than once unless they had something to hide.

Have you got Elizabeth below?

Can you please give the names you have, 1841, Liverpool.

William and Anne’s other son William ( my 3x grt grandad) not living with the family in 1841. The word is he was in other parts of England and maybe in France/jersey… but he’s back in Liverpool by 1849 with wife Jane Dawson  and son William Francis Ballard born 1849 in Liverpool … William ( my 3rd grt grandad ) was also  a tinsmith. I believe William Francis was as well.. william Francis’s son was John Richard Ballard mm who was a french polisher, moving his family to Wrexham in 1910… dying at the Somme in the royal Welsh fusiliers and remembered in Liverpool memorial wall at the town hall?? His daughter Eleanor Ballard my dads mum.

Letitia Ballard from the above 1841 census married John Evans, 1852, Maine, USA. She died 1922, aged 88, Maine. Her parents are named, William Ballard, Tinsmith and Mother, Ann McBride.

 

There's also a burial, St Mary's Cemetery, 1847, Richard Christopher Ballard, aged 7, son of William and Jane. There's no GRO  birth registration, possibly born elsewhere other than England and Wales.

I saw that entry for Letitia on ancestry.com. It stated her parents born in England but William and Ann Ballard weee born in Ireland. I think Letitia born around 1835/6 according to 1841 Liverpool census

regards

David

However, I think a lot of the Irish entering Liverpool went on to the USA and in the ancestry.com dna test it tells me I have a genetic link to settlers from England/Ireland/Scotland to New Jersey and Pennsylvania. I think some of the Ballards went to Boston. Who knows??

But I think your one in Maine could still be a possibility… and Ann  McBride would fit in with my suspicions that they were Protestant Irish. I assume McBride is Scottish. Again… who knows!

regards and thanks for your time

David

 

Hello again

that record for an Ann McBride as Letitia Ballards mum in Maine you posted … well McBride can be an Irish or a Scottish name… so the family could have been of either faiths

regards

David

The 1905 death of Robert F Ballard, Maine,

Father, William Ballard, Tinsmith,

Mother, Ann McBride,

Both parents born, Dublin, Ireland.

You could be on the right track! I also found Robert F Ballard on ancestry.

whats interesting is the names of the children… they are Christian names passed down my Ballard line in  liverpool

regards

David

 

Dear Bert

i should say many thanks for your research  and help. 
I talked to a distant relative and I think I have pieced the story together.

william Ballard(4x grt grandad) died in 1845 after a days fever. Ann his wife( nee McBride ) took family soon after to America where she is buried along with her children. 
william Ballard  ( my 3x grt grandad) was either elsewhere in England/Jersey or didn’t follow family to America. He had  William Francis ballard in Liverpool in 1849. William f had John Richard ballard in 1882 in Liverpool. John Richard has Eleanor ballard my grandma in Liverpool in 1906.

thanks again

David

Do you have any clues as to whereabouts in Ireland they came from?  and have you come across this website, one of the best for Irish research, especially since, if you find the entry you need, it often includes an original image from either Parish Registers or Birth/Marriage Registers, although they would be a little late for your family.  https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/

That confirms it Bert. All things in place and it all adds up. I see Robert F Ballard married in Massachusetts and I do remember a distant relative (Dave Maguire) telling me some of the Ballards went to Boston. They probably moved to Maine, close by.

regards

David

What is interesting is that I read Dublin at one time had a Protestant population constituting 20%…. Many skilled workers like smiths etc coming from England and settling. I now believe the Ballard family were Catholics…it’s good as I already have some Scottish relatives on my tree who lived in Liverpool. George Murray and Mary Newton… traced her to Edinburgh and him to Eccles in Berwickshire. In Berwickshire the family is mixed with English families as is border country.

regards

David

Joshua Tunstall was the Minister for William Ballard, 1845.

 

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Claremont Grove Independent Chapel, Kirkdale
in the County of
-- Lancashire --

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At the time of the establishment of this Congregational Chapel in 1829, Kirkdale was a village lyng some two miles beyond the outer reaches of Liverpool with a rapidly expanding population of between 2 and 3,000 persons.

The building, situated in Claremont Grove, was constructed to meet the devotional needs of local non-conformists and was opened on Wednesday, October 28th 1829 being described thus; “a neat and commodious chapel, calculated to accommodate from 3 to 400 persons, and capable of admitting a gallery." Preachers at the opening where the Reverends John Kelly and Dr. Raffles1.

The Rev. Joshua Tunstall became Minister in 1830 at a time when congregations averaged “60 to 80 in the morning, and from 100 to 200 in the evening". Tunstall remained as Pastor for 30 years resigning in 1858. A succession of Ministers followed, with an American, the Rev. F. Wallace becoming Pastor in 1866. Wallace led the move from Claremont Grove to the present building in Westminster Road (now the United Reformed Church) in 18721.

The original chapel in Claremont Grove (now Fountains Road) was purchased by the Roman Catholic diocese in 1870 and opened as the Church of St. John the Evangelist. A new church replaced the original chapel building in 18852.

It appears Joshua Tunstall around that time buried everyone, not everyone could be of the same religion, same minister covered all.

I would say that the maiden name of William’s wife Ann  ‘McBride’ probably makes them Catholic looking at the denomination maps of Ireland for 1901.

Whether they be Catholic or Protestant I will have a Guinness tonight in their name!

Next to get beyond the brick wall on my mum’s side.. not a Liverpool matter but Irish again.

Ellen Horn born Cork 1831/2. Married a Thomas Brown in 1855 at St Nicholas Church Deptford Green.

Lived  in Eltham Kent.

Names her father as John Cope Horn (a mariner) on marriage cert.

The only John Cope Horn I find is a mariner from Harwich in Essex. 
 

Ellen Horn is my 3x great grandmother.

Any tips would be most appreciated as I have been looking for 3 years and can get no further.
 

regards

David

 

The most obvious way to go is look for a marriage with a male Horn and female Cope

Name: John Cope
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 17 Aug
Baptism Date: 9 Sep 1789
Baptism Place: Harwich, St Nicholas, Essex, England
Father: Stephen Horn
Mother: Susannah Horn

 

Name: Stephen Horne
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 31 Jan 1773
Marriage Place: Dovercourt, All Saints, Essex, England
Spouse: Susannah Cope

 
Name: Ellen Horn
Baptism Age: 7
Birth Date: 2 Dec 1816
Baptism Date: 19 Apr 1824
Baptism Place: Harwich, St Nicholas, Essex, England
Search Photos: Search for 'Harwich, St Nicholas' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Map:

View this parish
Father: John Cope Horn
Mother: Elizabeth Horn

If this is the Ellen Brown and family, it can not be the above daughter of John Cope Horn.

Name: Ellen Brown
Gender: Female
Age: 30
Relation: Wife
Estimated Birth Year: 1831
Where born: Cork, Ireland
Civil parish: Eltham
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Lewisham
Sub-registration district: Eltham
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 116
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Thomas Brown 30 Head
Ellen Brown 30 Wife
Thomas Brown 4 Son
Timothy Brown 2 Son
Martha Brown 7/12 Daughter
Henry Wallace 27 Boarder
Thomas Davis 30 Boarder