Could be a good shout, Bert.  I had seen the census record before but never made the link with Sarah Hill on Isabella's marriage certificate.  And, of course, Isabella married some 18 months after the census so could well have kept in touch with Sarah.

Another fact that could support your theory is that in 1886 Isabella had a daughter whom she called Esther.  The child died in 1887.

Do I hear a brick wall falling down?!  Just the little matter of the father's first name ......

Glen

Bert:  I don't seem able to find the records you refer to (i.e. Thomas Barton on the 1851 census and a birth record that shows he and Esther had a daughter called Isabella).  

Can you point me in the right direction, pleas?

Thanks, 

Glen

Thanks, Bert - got them.   This evening, I will send for the 1851 Wirral birth certifcate for Isabella (seems like I may have been too premature when I dismissed it some 15 years ago!) and the 1852 death certifcate for Thomas to see if I can glean anything new.  I'll post my findings when they come.

If anyone has the time, I wonder if someone could take a look at the 1871 census referred to by Bert and tell me where you think Sarah Mills was born.  The Ancestry transcription says Dorchester but as far as I am aware there is no such place in Yorks.  I won't prejudice anyone by saying what I think (hope!) the place might be.

The look-up ref for the 1871 census is: Sarah Mills, d.o.b. 1844, place of birth:  Yorkshire.

Looking forward to your responses.

Glen

I was hoping the birthplace would be transcribed as Doncaster as I had found a Sarah Hill born there in 1844 (although a Sarah Mills was also born there in 1846!) so I was beginning to be hopeful I could show that the Sarah Mills on the 1871 census was the same person as the Sarah Hill on Isabella's marriage certifcate in 1872, thereby making the link between my great grandmother and the child born in Birkenhead.

However, given that it now turns out that Sarah Mills was in fact a married name (I think I must have read what I expected to see in that column and the writing is most unclear), I'm struggling to prove anything at all.

I've also looked without success to see if Esther Barton remarried - perhaps someone called Robert! - so it looks as though my brick wall is going to stand for a while longer yet.

Do let me know if you spot anything else, Bert.

Regards,

Glen

I followed up Bert's idea and sent for the birth certificate for the Isabella Barton born in Birkenhead in 1851.  I was hoping it might have said the father was a ship's carpenter but it just stated that Thomas was a mariner so probably doesn't get me much further.

I also sent for the death certificate of the Thomas who died in 1852.  This was the same Thomas who fathered the Isabella born in Birkenhead but but the certifcate just describes him as a seaman.  Interestingly, he was found drowned in Edgerton Dock, Birkenhead so there could be an interesting story there if I can prove he was the father of my Isabella!  His wife would only have been in her early twenties so could well have subsequently partnered a Robert as Bert suggested.I

I haven't had any luck in proving the Sarah Mills on the 1871 census is the same person as Sarah Hill, who was a witness at Isabella's marrieage in 1872 so I am going to look for any evidence of Isabella Barton born 1851 in Birkenhead on records after the 1871 census - if I can then it proves she is not the Isabella I am looking for but if I can't find her on any record, I guess it still keeps the possibility alive.

If anyone comes across any records for an Isabella that might fit the bill, please let me know.  All help gratefully accespted!

Glen

Thanks, Bert - still no mention of a ship's carpenter, then!  I'll make some more checks and see if I can see anything that would link her to my Isabella.

Also, I want to correct something I posted before:  the 1852 death certificate does not refer to Esther's husband.  I had a look at the newpsper report with the death having been referred to the coroner and it mentions that the deceased Thomas was a flatman from Northwich.  A look at the 1851 census shows the dead man was probably born in Witton and had been waterman married to Jane nee Bebbington.

You're right, Mary - it certainly does get complicated!

Glen

Yes, I think it suggests Thomas was still alive too.

Given that I am trying to make a link between the Isabella Barton born in Birkenhead in 1851 and the Isabella Barton who married Thomas Maddox in 1872, I wondered if it might be worth finding out who reported the deaths of Thomas and Esther but given that Esther's would probably have been reported by the workhouse, I can't find Thomas's death and they didn't die in Liverpool anyway, perhaps it is too much of a long-shot to hope that one of the deaths may have been reported by their granddaughter Isabella Maddox!

However, I think Isabella's grandparents (Edward and Esther Roscoe) may have been living in Tenterden Street in Liverpool at the time of the 1871 census and both died there in 1871 and 1872 respectively so I am wondering if my long-shot might work with their death certificates (I guess Esther's would be my best bet).

Bert: I cannot make out the street Isabella Barton and Sarah Mills were working at in 1871 and I was wondering if you could decipher it and perhaps tell me if it was anywhere near Tenterden Street?

Many thanks,

Glen

Thanks, Bert - how on earth did I not deduce that!

I think I might go for it and send for Esther's death certificate and see if it gets me any closer to making the link.

I do think you might be on to something about the marriage certificate showing the wrong name for Isabella's father.  I mentioned Thomas Maddox and Isabella calling one of their daughters Esther, but another coincidence is that their eldest son was called Charles Edward - Charles was the name of Thomas's grandfather and Edward could be the name of Isabella's grandfather.

I'll post an update  when I get the certificate.

Regards,

Glen

I see where you are coming from, Bert.  Add to all that you have said that there doesn't seem to be any Robert Barton anywhere that fits the bill, it is certainly tempting to assume that the Isabella whom Thomas married was the same Isabella born in Birkenhead but there are still those 2 discrepencies: Thomas/Robert and Mills/Hill/Hills.

I have found a Sarah Mills born in Doncaster (place of birth on 1871 census) in 1846 and a Sarah Hill born there in 1844, which would coincide with the d.o.b. on the census.  But this isn't relevant if the woman was married  - the marital status isn't all that clear on the census.  Also, anyone got on views on whether a 27 year old cook would be a live-in servant if she was married?

Esther Roscoe's death certificate should come by the end of the week - oh for it to say her death was reported by Isabella Maddox, granddaughter!

G

Aghhh! You're right - I was getting carried away and perhaps mixed up with Esther Roscoe's death and Esther Barton's death.  Isabella didn't become a Maddox until December 1872 and ER died in May!  I've not really got a plan after all - I've sent for the death certificate so I'll just see what's on it.  The only address on Isabella's marriage certificate is Bevington Hill - same address for her and Thomas although the 1871 census has Thomas living in Addison Street - so not sure the address of the informant will help.  Does Bevington Hill fit in with Canning Street at all?

I think I may be running out of options on this bit of research - pity I can't sort the Mills/Hill conundrum out.

G

Just out of interest (I do think I am clutching at straws now), how far would Bevington Hill be from Tenterden Street?

Thanks for all your help on this one, Bert.  There are certainly a lot of coincidences - the proximity of Tenterden Street and St Albans being another - but I guess I just haven't got that final bit of proof to show that the Isabella who married Thomas in 1872 was indeed the same Isabella who was born in Birkenhead in 1851.

Unfortunately, Esther Roscoe's death certifcate got me no further as her death was reported by the woman who lived next door to her at the time of the 1871 census.  I don't know what other records I can look at and can't think of any more avenues to investigate apart from the Mills/Hill connection.  I think I will come back to this at another time as it may be a bit of a long haul to show that they either are or are not the same person.  Perhaps one for those long winter nights - as long as we have power to fire up the computer!

Thanks again, Bert - I would never have thought of following-up the Birkenhead link and I still think there may be something in it - I'll keep you posted if anything turns up!

Kind regards,

Glen