You are here

Thomas Yates 1851 census

28 posts / 0 new
Last post
John O
Thomas Yates 1851 census

Hi all, I am trying to trace Thomas Yates in the 1851 census. I have searched Ancestry without success. I don't have a subscription to Find My past at the moment, but searching his gives a date of birth of 1821 in Leigh, Lancashire, and that is where he was in 1851.

Spouse is I think either Mary Catherine or Catherine. He has a son Charles Yates born 1848 in Bedford, Leigh, Lancashire and I'm wondering if any kind soul has access and could they let me know if they can find them.

Many thanks, John

bertieone

John,

Is this one a possible, Living in Bedford, Silk Weaver.

Thomas Yates28Mary Yates28Francis Yates5Joseph Yates2Ann Catterall23

HO107 P2204 F268 P35

 Above,As transcribed Ancestry,

Frances (Female) and Joseph, mmn Grundy

Bert

John O

Thanks Bert, I have Thomas's occupation as joiner on his son Charles's wedding to Catherine Nicholson in 1877.  is that from 1851 return? I cannot find the family on the 1861 or 71 census either. 

Names - Orrett, Orritt, Ross, McCabe, Keeley, Bullen, White, Leatham, McKeon, Bilsbarrow, Yates, Sennett, Sinnett, Traynor, Ashton

bertieone

Could this be the reason no Charles on census?

Death

 

YATES, CHARLES    0  GRO Reference: 1848  J Quarter in LEIGH UNION  Volume 21  Page 389

Bert

bertieone

Charles 1848, Leigh, had mmn, Webb

Something wrong somewhere?

Bert

John O

Hi, I do have Thomas Yate's spouse as Webb but no forename. I have this from Charle's birth off GRO, YATES, CHARLES. Mother WEBB. GRO Reference: 1848  M Quarter in LEIGH UNION  Volume 21  Page 532.

I also have him on the 1881 and 1891 census, born Bedford Leigh, Lancashire. 

Names - Orrett, Orritt, Ross, McCabe, Keeley, Bullen, White, Leatham, McKeon, Bilsbarrow, Yates, Sennett, Sinnett, Traynor, Ashton

webby
webby's picture

To find his mother's forename, all you need to do is order a pdf of the certificate from the GRO, that will give the address, the forenames of both parents and the occupation of the father. It's well worth the small cost involved.

Shelagh_B

MaryA
MaryA's picture

There is a marriage in Chorlton June Q 1843 for Thomas Yates and Mary Grundy Chorlton 20 130

There may be too many to be sure of which Mary Yates died, however there are a few that could be possible in the Leigh area.

Perhaps "Mrs" Webb came in to help with the youngsters and another came along.  In these circumstances an official union didn't always take place.

 

MaryA

Member 6532

webby
webby's picture

Marriage: 11 Jun 1843 St Mary the Virgin, Eccles, Lancashire, England
Thomas Yates - (X), minor, Weaver, Bachelor, Worsley
Mary Grundy - (X), of full age, Spinster, Worsley
    Bride's Father: James Grundy, Weaver
    Witness: James Cross; Thomas Gorse
    Married by Banns by: Willm. Marsden, Vicar
    Notes: [no name or occupation entered for the groom's father]
    Register: Marriages 1842 - 1843, Page 202, Entry 403
    Source: Manchester Central Library

Shelagh_B

John O

Thanks for all the comments; I will order a copy of the birth certificate as suggested. I do not think the Thomas Yates/Mary Grundy is the correct marriage, due to 'my' Thomas being a joiner on Charlse's marriage certificate.and unlikely to change occupation, even though Eccles isn't a million miles away from Bedford, Leigh.

Will report back when I have the pdf.

Names - Orrett, Orritt, Ross, McCabe, Keeley, Bullen, White, Leatham, McKeon, Bilsbarrow, Yates, Sennett, Sinnett, Traynor, Ashton

John O

Just following up on the above; I received my copy birth certificate for Charles but think I have the wrong one. This Charles did have a MMN of Webb and was born in Atherton in 1848.

I was looking at the 1881 census and there is a Charles Yates aged 44, born in 'Bedford Lee' Lancs, and his wife Catherine aged 34 and born in Ireland. They were living in Gordon Street and also had a daughter Ellen aged 8 and son Thomas aged 2. Charles was a labourer.

Fast forward to the 1891 census. Charles is aged 43, born 'Bedford Leigh' Lancashire and his wife Catherine is slso aged 43, born Ireland. Ellen is now 18 and Thomas 13. Charles is a dock labourer and they lived in Waterworks Street in Bootle. 

Looks like there was either a miscommunication about his age or he told porky pies in 1891. If the 1881 return was correct, then his birth would have been around 1837. GRO has 2 Chales Yates registered in Liverpool Q1 1838, no MMN against either.

 

Names - Orrett, Orritt, Ross, McCabe, Keeley, Bullen, White, Leatham, McKeon, Bilsbarrow, Yates, Sennett, Sinnett, Traynor, Ashton

bertieone

John,

Starting with the 1881 census, Gordon St,

Charles Yate44Catherine Yate34Frank Yate11Ellen Yate8Thomas Yate2Charles Yate1Thomas Nicholson15

 

Frank Yates who we previously found registered female, GRO, but spelt, Francis, mmn Gold.

 

We know Charles Yeates married Catherine Nicholson, 1877 Liverpool, Widower, Father, Thomas, Joiner.

 

I think the above child Francis Yates was from his previous marriage to, Mary Ann Golding, 1859, Liverpool, at this marriage he is also a Widower, father, Thomas, Joiner.

 

Another marriage prior to him marrying Mary Ann Golding worth looking into is, Charles Yates/Elizabeth Tonge, 1854, Manchester. Father Thomas, Joiner.

Bert

bertieone

1871, St Giles in the field

Rg10 P349 F80 P58

Charles Yates30Head, Wigan,Mary Ann Yates28Wife, Liverpool,Jane Yates8Daughter, Manchester,Anne Yates5Daughter, Manchester,Francis Yates1Son, Middlesex.

Bert

bertieone

The 2 girls above born Manchester could be the link to the marriage to Elizabeth Tonge, Manchester, not her children but where he was residing at the time.

If so and the same Charles Yates, that marriage gives a birth date 1833/34.

Bert

bertieone

Some possibles,

Mary Ann Yates, 1855, Manchester, mmn, Tonge.

Mary Ann Yates, Death, 1856, Manchester, aged 1.

Elizabeth Yates, Death, 1857, Manchester, aged 22. Which would make her a minor as recorded, 1854 marriage.

Bert

bertieone

I know the places of birth bounce around a bit, another worth checking,

As Transcribed, Anc.

 

Thomas Yales50, JOINER,Ellen Yales51John Yales19Charles Yales17Richard Yales12Mary Ann Yales10

HO107 P2205, F26 P17

Bert

bertieone

Ellen, on the 1881 census,

 

YATES, ELLEN    mmn GOLDRING  GRO Reference: 1872  M Quarter in ST GILES  Volume 01B  Page 582

Bert

John O

Hi Bert, many thanks as ever for taking the time to research and respond. I had a look at the Thomas Yates/Ellen marriage and found this. No occupation unfortunately:

Marriage: 22 Nov 1826 All Saints, Hindley, Lancashire, England
Thomas Yates - Batchelor, Wigan Parish
Ellen Bolton - Spinster, Hindley, Wigan Parish
Witness: Mary Yates; Catherine Bolton; Saml. Yates; James Yates; John Walls.

Another Ancestry member has the same relationship with a son John b1832.

The 1851 return for the 'Yales' family looks promising. I have also looked at a few birth records for Mary Ann, and there is a birth in 1841 but the father Thomas is a colliery worker, and in another census return I have found is a colliery sinker. There seem to be a few Yates families in that area. I am going with if he stated he is a joiner then that is what he would probably stick to.

I will spend some time reviewing all these, the Yates family are my wife's direct ancestors so I need to get it right smiley.

Names - Orrett, Orritt, Ross, McCabe, Keeley, Bullen, White, Leatham, McKeon, Bilsbarrow, Yates, Sennett, Sinnett, Traynor, Ashton

bertieone

I wonder if this is the 1841 census following the Yates/Bolton marriage

Liverpool, HO107 P559 Book14

Thomas Yates is an Iron Founder,

Thomas Yates40Ellen Yates35Caroline Yates10Juliana Yates9Emma Yates3Catherine Carle20Ellen Boulton75

Ellen Yates is not on the 1851 census, there is an Ellen Yates buried in Wigan, 1848, address, Liverpool.

Name:Ellen YatesAge:45Birth Year:abt 1803Burial Date:9 Jun 1848Burial Place:Wigan, All Saints, Lancashire, EnglandParish as it Appears:Wigan

Bert

bertieone

John,

If you look at the last 4 children on this 1841 census, HO107 P513 Book8, they correspond with the children on the 1851, Thomas Yales census posted earlier.

James Yates on the 1841 census is living next door to Thomas on the 1851, along with his wife and children.

 

As Transcribed, Anc.

Thomas Gutes40Ellen Gutes40Rachel Hilton60James Yates15Thomas Yates14Peter Yates12John Yates10Charles Yates8Richard Yates3Mary Ann Yates4 MoPeter Yates60

 

James Yates married Margaret Guest, 1845, 

Image: 

Bert

bertieone

I thought because of James birth year, this marriage was a possible,

 

Marriage: 27 Aug 1820 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Thomas Yates - (X), Wigan Parish
Ellen Heys - (X), Wigan Parish
    Witness: Thomas Hayes; Saml. Vizard
    Married by Banns by: Edwd. Hill, Curate

 

Also backed up with this birth below,

 

Image: 

Bert

bertieone

Richard Yates, birth reg.

Image: 

Bert

bertieone

Trying to find who Rachel Hilton was, 1841 census, a family connection below, note same witness, Samuel Whittle, as James marriage, 1845, and another Taylor surname.

Image: 

Bert

John O

Hi Bert, thank you for your efforts, you are a scholar and a gentleman.

You have certainly given me some food for thought. I also found another tree on Ancestry with the Yates family in it. I remembered that I had messaged the owner of the site back in 2018 but unfortunately he has never responded.

He has Thomas Yates, b1801 with two marriages:

Ellen Bolton on 22nd November 1826 in Wigan. Lancashire, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936 has a copy record but no occupation. Both are unmarried at the time. Ellen died April 1857 in Leigh.

Alice Hampson in April 1858 at Leigh. Taken from England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index, 1837-1915. Alice died in January 1877 in Leigh. No death date for Thomas.

The tree only has the one son, Charles Yates b1834 which ties in with your comments above. Charles had three marriages according to this tree:

Elizabeth Tonge on 2nd April 1854 at Manchester cathedral. Charles is 20, Elizabeth 19. Both living in Collier's Row, Gaythorn. Father is Thomas Yates, joiner. Manchester, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1930 (Cathedral) has a copy certificate. No death date for Elizabeth.

Mary Ann Goulding on 19th June 1859. England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973 has father as Thomas Yates, no occupation stated. In 1871 he is living in St Giles in the Field, London. He is a bricklayer's labourer and Mary Ann is still living and with 3 children. No death date for Mary Ann.

Katharine McGrath (Nicholson) on 11th February 1877 in St Simon's Liverpool. Liverpool, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921 has a copy certificate which we have seen previously with Charles as a labourer and father Thomas Yeates (sic) joiner. No death record on this tree for Katharine or Charles.

Only spanner in the works is the record you have for Thomas marrying Ellen Hays in 1820. Also, the birth snip for Richard in Sep 1838 with Heyes as the mmn. Mary Ann Mar 1841 also has mmn Heyes. Charles being born c1837 might not be late enough to be recorded on GRO as I can't see a match for mmn Heyes or similar.

The marriage in your snip above between Thomas and Ellen Heys has another Thomas Yates as a witness, possibly the father. In the Ancestry tree, the father is Peter Yates and mother Mary Whittle, this coming from the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 record. For some reason on this tree the mother's name is shown as Private, because her status is still 'living'. I will try and message the tree owner again and see if I get a response this time. He also has my mother in law as still living, although she passed away a couple of years ago so I will give him the date which may encourage some dialogue. 

Great work though Bert, thanks so far to you, Shelagh and Mary for the assistance.

 

 

 

Names - Orrett, Orritt, Ross, McCabe, Keeley, Bullen, White, Leatham, McKeon, Bilsbarrow, Yates, Sennett, Sinnett, Traynor, Ashton

John O

Me again, having fun looking through Ancestry trees to see who has who down as being related. 

The first tree I looked at had Thomas Yates b1801 married to Ellen Bolton. Interestingly, the next tree had Thomas marrying Ellen Hays, which fits in with Bert's birth records and mmn of Heyes for Mary Ann Yates in 1838. Bert also mentioned the surname Whittle being a witness to a marriage. More interesting is that the later tree had the father of Thomas Yates as Peter Yates, married to Mary Whittle. Possibly the marriage of Richard Yates and Martha Hilton in 1820, as per Bert's snip, with Samuel Whittle as witness, could be one of Mary Whittle's brothers (she was born 1782) or possibly one of her brother's sons?

Only issue is this tree has Charles Yates as being born in 1829 in St Helen's rather than 1833/4 as per Bert's thoughts or 1837 as I have it.

I did message the owner of the first tree but according to Ancestry, he last signed in over a month ago.

 

 

Names - Orrett, Orritt, Ross, McCabe, Keeley, Bullen, White, Leatham, McKeon, Bilsbarrow, Yates, Sennett, Sinnett, Traynor, Ashton

bertieone

John,

I always think, the younger they are, the more accurate their ages are. If you look for a Charles Yates born 1835+/-2 and a father Thomas, Joiner. If I remember correctly, Thomas Yale, 1851 was the only one that fitted in the area of interest. Getting back to 1841, what are the chances of the last 4 children on the 1851 matching the last 4 children on the 1841 with parents Thomas and Ellen, the last 2 falling within registration and both MMN, Heys. If you agree Charles was married 3 times, the first marriage at his youngest gives a birth date 1833/34, again I think more likely accurate than the 1877 marriage. Along with other clues, I think Yates/Hays marriage.

Bert

John O

Thanks again for the response Bert. I agree that the Yates/Hays marriage is correct together with the '41 and '51census returns. I am working back from my wife's great grandfather Charles Yates, who was born according to the 1939 register on 10th Feb 1880. This ties in with the GRO record of Q1 1880 and mmn McGrath and I know most of his life onwards. The 1881, '91 and '01 records tie in with the other family members and then after his marriage in 1903 census and electoral register entries etc. 

I think for proof I will do as Shelagh suggested and get another GRO certificate, this time for Charles' birth in 1880 to make sure his mother was Mary Catherine McGrath. One of the confusions is that the 1877 Nicholson/Mcgrath wedding to Charles Yates in 1877 has her name as Catherine and not Mary Catherine. If I can get the details of Charles' father then I can look to get proof of the parents and work back. 

Thanks, John

Names - Orrett, Orritt, Ross, McCabe, Keeley, Bullen, White, Leatham, McKeon, Bilsbarrow, Yates, Sennett, Sinnett, Traynor, Ashton

John O

Just an update on my previous posts. I have received my copy certificates which looking at the birth cert of Charles Yates b10 Feb 1880 does prove that Charles Yates was married to Catherine Yates, late Nicholson formerly McGrath. The marriage cert of Charles to his wife Annie Elizabeth Sennett tallies with the father's name and occupation. Getting the line sorted slowly. 

Thanks to everyone for their kind help.

Names - Orrett, Orritt, Ross, McCabe, Keeley, Bullen, White, Leatham, McKeon, Bilsbarrow, Yates, Sennett, Sinnett, Traynor, Ashton